Spin-down dice not random?
General forum
Posted on May 18, 2014, 8:53 p.m. by MagnusMTG
Just remembered this from a couple weeks back. Someone I was playing a casual match with between rounds of an event said he refuses to roll a spin-down d20 to determine who goes first because he said that because the numbers are in order, the roll isn't random.
I tried to explain to him how that didn't make a difference, but I don't think he was convinced.
(Now, I teach math and physics for a living, but I won't say that makes me infallible about such things - maybe he had a point ??)
Anyone else hear of people who think that (or do so yourself?
@NotSoLuckyLydia: Just curious on how to do that (the theory, not telling me to practice).
May 18, 2014 9:11 p.m.
NotSoLuckyLydia says... #4
It involves a backspin and very little actual movement. That way it hits the table around the 1, and spins back to the 20.
May 18, 2014 9:13 p.m.
NotSoLuckyLydia says... #5
You can do that with the regular dice by hitting it on the 19 and trying to spin it back to the 20, but other, lower numbers are adjacent to the twenty, meaning you'll get less high rolls.
May 18, 2014 9:14 p.m.
The idea is that, because all of the higher numbers are concentrated, you can manipulate the outcome and get (on average) higher roles if you role the dice in such a way so that the higher side comes up on top. Its definitely doable, and honestly doesn't require that much practice. I can't always get 20, but I can pretty consistently get in the 17-20 range, which is pretty good.
May 18, 2014 9:19 p.m.
Due to way dice is set up, it is possible with time to get good enough to roll double numbers consistently. I banned spin-down in my DnD group once I caught on to one of my players using a spin-down, thinking he was using a loaded dice.
May 18, 2014 9:51 p.m.
Basically, if you're legitimately rolling it, it is just as random as any conventional d20. However, it is easy to learn how to manipulate the roll to get a high result, so the results of a spindown roll are only as trustworthy as the person rolling it.
In a casual game, I typically don't care (and will often roll a spindown myself if that's the d20 I happen to grab; I don't know how to influence the result nor do I wish to). In a tournament or other competitive setting, using a spindown is a bad idea though because of the potential for cheating. Even if you know you aren't cheating, your opponent can't be sure.
May 18, 2014 10:04 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #9
Just roll two d6's.
chessex sells them in a container of a lot for like $6.
May 18, 2014 10:24 p.m.
That's why spindowns are called "spindowns". They aren't actual dice, though they are basically the same thing in terms of size and shape. On an actual dice the numbers on opposite sides will all add up to the same total. For instance on a D6 the numbers 6 and 1 are opposite each other and so are 5 and 2, along with 3 and 4. each of these numbers has a sum of 7. On a D20 you'll see the pairings are (20,1) (19,2) (18,3) and so on. Each sum adds up to 21 though. On a "spindown" the numbers are all consecutive, and as it's been pointed out, that makes manipulating the roll much easier. A higher number will always make it's last flip to another high number since they're all immediately adjacent and it actually takes away from the randomness of the roll.
May 18, 2014 10:30 p.m.
oops almost forgot to add that wizards list them on their products, such as fat packs which include them, as "spindown life counters" and not dice.
May 18, 2014 10:38 p.m.
You know what? If you're so desperate to gain an advantage against me that you'll take the time to learn how to cheat rather than actually get better at the game, just tel me. I'll let you play first every game. I don't care enough. Seems very petty to me.
May 19, 2014 1:04 a.m.
TheDevicer that's the thing it really doesn't take any time at all in order to do it
May 19, 2014 3:28 a.m.
also, even if you and your opponent are both good honest players with no intent of cheating rolling a spindown life counter as a die as opposed to something like an actual D20 does effect the outcome of the roll.
May 19, 2014 3:33 a.m.
Most of the comments reflect the first thing I said in response to hearing about it. It's like learning how to manipulate a coin flip.
I figure anyone (with practice) can manipulate any object to operate how they like, but if used legitimately, a spin-down die is just as random as any other.
For that reason, I prefer them even more, because you can probably notice if someone is trying to cheat with one, then you know what kind of person they are.
It's like watching people shuffle and notice them trying to subtly stack the deck. As TheDevicer said, if the other player is going to take advantage and try to cheat, it's petty and unsportsmanlike, and not worth worrying about.
May 19, 2014 3:38 a.m.
wombatman880 says... #16
There's a reason dice are made a certain way and that's so your odds of a high roll are just as good as your odds of a low roll with a traditional roll (not cheating) now the point is that if you spin a standard 20 in a way to get to a 20 then if you fail you have a good chance of getting something significantly less advantageous. A spin down die would result in advantage here. Most people aren't skilled enough to spin any die in a way that gets them a 20 each time but someone who is relatively skilled can generally get a high or low roll on a spin down.
NotSoLuckyLydia says... #2
I can influence the roll of a spindown pretty well, through a lot of practice. It got to the point where my GM won't let me use them.
May 18, 2014 8:58 p.m.