Question about Trample...!
General forum
Posted on Aug. 5, 2013, 9:53 a.m. by Askani28
I just saw on Gatherer a weird rule comment made by wizards about Scion of Darkness 's Trample and reanimation abilities. It doesn't make sense, so either I'm missing something, or wizards made an error...
It says: "10/4/2004 If this card destroys a creature in combat and at the same time (using its Trample ability) it damages a player, you will be able to target the destroyed creature (if it was a card and not a token) to be brought back."
Isn't combat damage dealt to creatures and trampled onto players at the same time? If so, wouldn't the blocker be put into its graveyard only after the player has been damaged by the trampling Scion of Darkness? How could you target the creature if its not yet in the grave? I know it will be in the grave when the ability resolves, but I believe it is still on the field when the ability triggers and the target must be selected.
I thought I knew all the rules of Mtg, this makes no sense to me. Can someone help me out here? Did Wizard make an error? Or am I a complete moron? loll
I don't remember when the change was made, but it's recent. The ruling was posted in 2004, so it predates the new no-stack rule that's for sure. I thought about it, but it doesn't make any more sense, since the damage was dealt to creatures and players simultaneously after it resolved from the stack.
Thanks, I'm feeling a bit less stupid. Wizards must have made an error on the Gatherer then.
August 5, 2013 11:10 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
510.3 and 510.4 are written in a confusing way. They really should just be the same paragraph, or maybe rewritten entirely. Here is the relevant text from some other rules that will help sort out what's going on here:
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that's not a card the next time a player would receive priority...
603.3d The remainder of the process for putting a triggered ability on the stack is identical to the process for casting a spell listed in rules 601.2cd... My note: this includes choosing targets
704.3. ...Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority...
A complete reading of 704.3 (a very important part was missed in the earlier quote) tells us that SBAs are checked and executed right before a player actually gets priority. This means that creatures who died in combat are already in the graveyard at the time you need to choose a target for the triggered ability on Scion of Darkness . 510.3 and 510.4 are just trying to give a condensed explanation of how you need to apply Section 603 ("Handling Triggered Abilities"), but they leave out some details.
August 5, 2013 11:24 a.m.
Huh, what do you know. I'm still learning new stuff about Mtg rules. Never realized the triggering of an ability and actually putting it on the stack was 2 different things. Thanks Rhadamanthus. You just restored my faith in Wizards. They can still be my infallible heroes loll.
RussischerZar says... #2
Let's see, get some rules together that apply here:
510. Combat Damage Step
510.2. Second, all combat damage that's been assigned is dealt simultaneously. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack. No player has the chance to cast spells or activate abilities between the time combat damage is assigned and the time it's dealt. This is a change from previous rules.
510.3. Third, any abilities that triggered on damage being assigned or dealt go on the stack. (See rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities.")
510.4. Fourth, the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities.
704. State-Based Actions
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, "Timing and Priority"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event.
704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed.
I see it the same way as you do. The ability goes onto the stack first, then SBAs are checked and only then the creature goes to the graveyard, thus it should not be a legal target.
When did they change the rule with the combat damage using the stack again?
August 5, 2013 10:54 a.m.