Pile Shuffling
General forum
Posted on Nov. 19, 2015, 9:56 p.m. by wwhitegoldd
So I've heard a couple times this week (which might not seem like much but considering I've never heard it before, it's a lot) that pile shuffling does nothing to actually randomise your deck. Can someone please explain why or post a link to an article about why?
SimicPower says... #4
I wouldn't say it does nothing to actually randomize your deck, but I know it doesn't do a good enough job to be legal at the competitive level. I think it is because it is very abusable. For example, you could plan to pile shuffle your deck three times, but arrange the cards beforehand so that after three pile shuffles you would have a perfect hand.
November 19, 2015 10:10 p.m.
While many players will still pile shuffle at least once in order to confirm card count, there are two reason you'll want to avoid it as your primary shuffle method.
For starters, it's just not a very good shuffle. You make relatively few card movements in the time it takes meaning is takes much longer to randomize the deck. The other issues is that it's not true randomization, you technically still know the location of every card since it's a predicable movement. Many methods of cheating are based on this.
If you're having trouble riffle or mash shuffling, the best thing to do is practice at home. Just sit and watch TV with the deck and keep trying, eventually it will become muscle memory. You can always ask a judge as well to assist you when you're at an event.
November 19, 2015 11:25 p.m.
wwhitegoldd says... #6
I think you guys misunderstand. I do mostly riffle shuffle but I do pile shuffle too. That's why I asked, but it seems like as long as you don't primarily pile shuffle you good. thanks
November 19, 2015 11:44 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #7
In the time that you complete one pile shuffle of any count, your opponent has done 20 mash shuffles and their deck is truly randomized. It's just not an efficient method. You'll get there with it eventually, but it won't get there in the time that you have to shuffle.
November 19, 2015 11:58 p.m.
As a general rule of thumb, pile shuffling is pretty bad. You'll want to mash or riffle every time. Most people will still pile before a game to make sure they didn't fuck up during sideboarding. It's a good mental check and reorganizes your deck a bit. All in all, the time you spend doing it isn't that long. You shouldn't ever be pressured for time during a game because you piled before games 1, 2, and 3 began.
November 20, 2015 1:45 a.m.
JakeHarlow says... #9
I pile shuffle for a deck count, then liberally mash shuffle the deck. Seems to work.
November 20, 2015 2:59 a.m.
Yeah, that's essentially what the majority of players do. I've never had issues with that way either.
November 20, 2015 3:09 a.m.
Mathematically certain pile shuffles produce very close replicas of true randomness as measured by card spread. However the thing about it is that it's deterministic - after every pile shuffle you know where each card is in your deck. If you have a very good memory you can remember that information and use it! Therefore whilst it appears to be one of the best ways to shuffle from a probabilistic perspective it's actually one of the worst ways to shuffle because it allows you to tell the order of your cards.
November 20, 2015 8:29 a.m.
Pile shuffling when you go around in a circle or repeat the same pattern over and over again won't change the randomness of your deck because it can be reversed. Personally, I think pile shuffling is a great way to check the number of cards in your deck--It's not just about sideboarding; cards like Pacifism have a great way of winding up shuffled into other people's libraries if you aren't careful, and a deck-count doesn't hurt.
There are ways to make it improve randomness. Dropping cards in a random order instead of going around in a circle is a good example. But the mash shuffle is so fast and effective it's hard to argue against. I can do the mathematically solid 7 mash shuffles in the time it takes to pile shuffle once--perhaps twice if you are abnormally fast at it.
deathtouch_roadrunner says... #2
This youtube video has a good overview:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxJubaijQbI
November 19, 2015 10:09 p.m.