Library etiquette, call outs
General forum
Posted on Sept. 5, 2013, 8:27 p.m. by REV666
So I stopped playing around tempest/mirage/portal and back then, rules were really simple and cheating was common, but not hard to deal with (usually more than 7 in hand or 4 in deck).
now theres a ton more rules and formats, and things are much more serious at even "Casual" FNM tourneys.
heres the thing. i play with all my cards facing the same way in the library. as a magician as well, i also know how to "mark" cards and have seen everything from blatant marks to cut cards and the like, as well as the simple "awesome cards go backwards" deal.
now, as a more or less new guy back to the game of MTG, what should i do if i feel someone is doing any of these on purpose?
for example, in any deck you have land. if you have a deck thats very dependent on that land, and all your lands face the opposite way than the rest of your cards then you know when youre going to be able to get the card you need on what turn based on the top of your library.
same goes with any high powered cards. if you have a few cards your deck depends on, and they are either marked or turned around (on purpose) then that is, IMO, cheating. in a sense you know whats next and that affects the way you play, and by proxy how i play, this turn. sure, you can loose a few cheap guys if you know your big hitter is up next.
and when you feel that you have witnessed someone doing any of these, how do you go about "calling them out" on it?
If you feel that someone is cheating, call a judge and explain why you think they are cheating. If you are worried about deck manipulation, you are technically allowed to reshuffle their deck when they offer it to cut.
September 5, 2013 8:32 p.m.
KnightsBattlecry001 says... #4
Me personally if it's just playing with friends, I'll let it slide the first time. If it happens again I'll usually say something. I tell them if you go to fnm or the like and do something like this, you will most likely get caught and disqualified. If it happens at fnm I will call a judge right then and there if I see more than one card turned around, and have them check their deck to prove that they are cheating.
Be aware though that sometimes cards get turned around when a match is over when someone gathers their cards together to put back in their deck and when they shuffle. I've seen it happen with a little kid at a fnm before who just started playing and had no idea what he was doing. Someone accused him of cheating, and the judge had to explain to the kid that you can get in trouble for having cards turned around because it could be consider stacking the deck.
September 5, 2013 8:37 p.m.
There is a friend of mine who (to my knowledge) isn't cheating, but, has roughly half his deck backwards at any one time as well as potentially upside down in his hand just to piss off everyone looking at his hand from the sidelines. He also does the same thing with his board where some cards are facing him, others are facing you and other small things that are just there to be a casual nuisance for his own humor.
I honestly hadn't really considered the idea of using it for cheating, but, that thought is valid.
September 5, 2013 8:46 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #6
It's actually a valid concern, that two Explore s kid used marked cards to determine where his elixirs were by using foil cards. I've seen forms of card marking happen in tournaments, it even happened against me in a tournament and I called it out and the judge agreed with me. It was ridiculously blatant, upside down, double sleeved so the inner sleeve stuck out a little, warped foil win conditions, and his win conditions were the only cards like that. Easily shuffled to the top, which is why you always shuffle and cut you opponents deck, dealing with your opponent knowing how many cards until they get the card they need is another story though...
September 5, 2013 9:07 p.m.
I was told at a local tournament that if you didn't use sleeves and you had a card in your deck upside-down that was grounds for a DQ. And this was from a player that had been in higher level tournaments. As an older player, I hate sleeves, but since I learned that I've always been damn sure to keep all of the cards in the same orientation. Also, when in doubt, call a judge.
September 5, 2013 9:39 p.m.
good. at the FNM i go to we get everyone from 10 year olds just getting into it to the "old pros" and everything in between. as a magician, i am always looking for the advantage, but i dont try it because i feel there is a modicum of respect at these and i like that.
thanks for the pointers! i also kinda do things that are "annoying" like using the GIANT spindown and some other odd ball things.
September 5, 2013 9:41 p.m.
Arachnarchist says... #9
From my understanding, for most minor infractions, the penalty is a game loss first and a match loss second. If a player is found to be cheating thought, that will get a disqualification. So, in the case where a player has some cards upside down, if you call a judge, the judge will probably look at the players deck to see if there is a clear pattern. If so the judge may rule that your opponent was in fact cheating. If there is no clear pattern, the judge will probably issue a game loss and tell the player to be more careful about card alignment.
September 5, 2013 9:54 p.m.
ill prob talk to my local guys and see what the feel is there. i didnt call out the one kid (but i beat him anyway, GO BLACK/WHITE F YO LIFE) but it really didnt seem that he was doing anything odd.
September 5, 2013 10:05 p.m.
If you see it, simply take all the marked cards and put them on the bottom of his deck every time you "cut". You're allowed to do it as long as you're not looking at what the cards are
September 5, 2013 10:19 p.m.
In MTG you are not necessarily cutting, but are instead aiding in randomizing each deck until both players agree that neither player knows where any one card could be, that way neither player will be cheating by having such knowledge.
September 6, 2013 4:05 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #14
@Goody: Never do that, and never tell anyone else to do that. In the Tournament Rules that's considered just as bad as stacking a deck, and it counts as Cheating. A player who does that will get disqualified if anyone finds out.
September 6, 2013 5:02 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #15
every time I see this on the forums page I keep thinking about a librarian telling people to be quiet
September 6, 2013 6:40 p.m.
I always end up with my cards every which way after shuffling my deck as I am mostly a casual player. I had never considered this as evidence of cheating and had never considered the ramifications. I also find it disturbing that I wasn't told this at my first pre-release so I would know what to do and what to look out for. I have played in FNM and a few pre-releases and have only ever had one person straighten my cards. I will be sure to keep them straight form now on.
September 6, 2013 8:21 p.m.
The first instant I notice a card of mine turned the wrong way, I MUST immediately check to fix every single one. I assumed every magic player shared that compulsion.
September 6, 2013 8:38 p.m.
I wonder why tournament judges bother to look at a deck to see if there is a pattern at all in the turned vs non-turned cards?
September 7, 2013 7:04 a.m.
@Devonin: I am the same.
This is why I have not bought solid-colour opaque sleeves like my friends, but rather artwork sleeves. Much reduced risk of cards getting turned around.
September 7, 2013 7:52 a.m.
Ive actually had a guy standing behind me signaling his buddy what cards I had. Its sad you have to cheat to win...
September 7, 2013 10:14 a.m.
Arachnarchist says... #24
ekim32: With Solid-color sleeves I don't think it matters if your cards get turned around, because it's a lot harder and sometimes almost impossible to notice whether the next card is upside down or right side up.
September 7, 2013 11:06 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #25
By the way, anyone who says upside-down cards are automatically grounds for a DQ or cheating investigation is just plain wrong. They'll be considered by a judge if someone actually accuses you of cheating, but if that's the only reason someone calls you out for cheating (instead of, for example, calling you out for always having crazy good draws when the upside-down cards show up) the judge is much more likely to tell him to stop being a jackass rather than investigate you.
September 7, 2013 11:19 a.m.
a pattern of all heavy cards or similar spells, even mana could show premeditated cheating. if it were just rando cards, then it would be an oops and easy fix.
September 8, 2013 2:34 a.m.
First off... welcome back to magic REV666...
it's too bad that you have to worry about that at the "lower levels" of play at a local game shop, I have stopped even thinking of that now-adays, (if they want the win that bad have it, but more fun when I know you cheated AND I STILL WON!!!!) but if i suspect a "cheater".... sure call a judge if it means that much to you, but i would just say let the other players (or your friends in attendance) know what you suspect, or even just the player playing him next round after match-ups are called... see if the new opponent notices the same and then perhaps double team him with a judge...
As for "marked cards"... I understand why Mtg WotC make the "guild card sleeves" they do look cool when you have matching sleeves for the deck you are playing, but I ONLY ever use the "mono coloured sleeves" for my tourney decks.... AND I DO WISH WotC WOULD MAKE "PATTERNS ON SLEEVES" NOT LEGAL FOR TOURNEY'S!!!
but thanks for this "post in the forums" ... I never realized the "ramifications" of a few cards turned around in my library... gonna be more cautious from now on!!!
happy gaming
SharuumNyan says... #2
Most people put their decks in sleeves these days. At my LGS they will ask you to sleeve up an unsleeved deck in any competitive event, except for draft.
If you suspect someone is cheating in any way, call a judge. It may be hard to prove, but a least you might have a judge keeping an eye on the potential cheater the rest of the night.
The other option is to ask the other player to turn their cards around before you start game two.
September 5, 2013 8:30 p.m.