Can a player just reveal cards because they want to?
General forum
Posted on Sept. 26, 2017, 5:30 p.m. by MagicalHacker
Recently, a post was made on the EDH subreddit about whether or not players are allowed to show other players cards from their hand in a multiplayer game for political reasons (https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/72hjel/can_you_just_reveal_cards_from_your_hand/).
I tried my best to find something in the magic comprehensive rules that said something along the lines of "Cards in a player's hand can only be seen by that player, unless an effect causes that player to reveal one or more of those cards to all players." Unfortunately, the closest I found was Rule 103.5. Do you think this rule adequately shows that revealing cards from the hand without an effect is not a legal action? Is there a better rule in the rulebook that answers this?
Thanks!
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #3
I'm having difficulty finding rulings specifically regarding revealing to individual players during a multiplayer game, but I'm fairly certain you can reveal a card to all players, simply by proposing the casting and then failing to pay the costs which reverses the game to the point before you proposed the casting.
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell includes proposal of the spell (rules 601.2a–d) and determination and payment of costs (rules 601.2f–h). To cast a spell, a player follows the steps listed below, in order. A player must be legally allowed to cast the spell to begin this process (see rule 601.3), ignoring any effect that would prohibit that spell from being cast based on information determined during that spell’s proposal. (Such effects are considered during the check detailed in rule 601.2e.) If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the casting of that spell was proposed (see rule 720, “Handling Illegal Actions”).
720.1. If a player takes an illegal action or starts to take an action but can’t legally complete it, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled. No abilities trigger and no effects apply as a result of an undone action. If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it came from. The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities activated while making the illegal play, unless mana from them or from any triggered mana abilities they triggered was spent on another mana ability that wasn’t reversed. Players may not reverse actions that moved cards to a library, moved cards from a library to any zone other than the stack, caused a library to be shuffled, or caused cards from a library to be revealed.
September 26, 2017 6:24 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #4
Also, as per MTG's tournament rules:
"3.12 Hidden Information
Hidden information refers to the faces of cards and other objects at which the rules of the game and format do not allow you to look.Throughout the match, a draft, and pregame procedures, players are responsible for keeping their cards above the level of the playing surface and for making reasonable efforts to prevent hidden information from being revealed. However, players may choose to reveal their hands or any other hidden information available to them, unless specifically prohibited by the rules. Players must not actively attempt to gain information hidden from them, but are not required to inform opponents who are accidentally revealing hidden information."
So yeah, it's actually totally legal to reveal a card to everybody, but I'm uncertain in regards to "showing" hidden information to specific players.
September 26, 2017 6:42 p.m. Edited.
DarkMagician says... #5
According to the rules you can reveal the cards in your hand at will however the rules do not specifically say that you must reveal a given card to everybody unless an effect specifically says so. At the end of the day this is going to come down to your playgroup, discuss it with them before hand.
September 26, 2017 7:15 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #6
DarkMagician I'm not so sure. MTG is very specific about vocabulary. Reveal means Reveal. If a rule says you may Tap a card, you Tap it, as per the rules, completely inclusive. So if the rules say you may "reveal" a card, then they are specifically referring to the "reveal" action, as described by the game rules, which specifies all players be shown the card.
It's sketch territory just because most tournaments are 1v1 and this sort of thing is never an issue. Multiplayer is a whole different animal, as is EDH and politics.
September 26, 2017 7:19 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #7
Great catch! Yeah I didn't think to look at the MTR for exceptions to the Comprehensive Rules. I wonder if someone has already tweeted Blake Rasmussen about this particular rules question.
September 26, 2017 7:25 p.m.
DarkMagician says... #8
Tyrant-Thanatos This question intrigued me so I actually called the MTG helpline for an answer... And it had them a bit perplexed as well. This is the answer they gave me but you make a great point in pointing out the MTG definition of reveal. Does it say anywhere in the comprehensive rules that you can't "show" a player a card from your hand? Personally I still feel like this one is going to come down to your playgroup since it's such an obscure thing with nearly no relevance to competitive play (meaning Wizards may not have given it any consideration themselves).
September 26, 2017 7:59 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #9
DarkMagician I absolutely agree with that last bit, and it's kind of what I was getting at when I referred to it as sketch territory. I do doubt WotC have given it consideration because it is an obscure thing with practically no relevance to competitive play at all.
Nothing in the comp rules says you can't show a player a card, however the rule of thumb is that just because the rules don't say you can't do something doesn't mean you can do that thing. The rules say nothing about physically assaulting my opponent, but I'm pretty sure that's not allowed. lol
Plus, with MTR saying that you can reveal hidden information, seems to me to imply that that's the thing you can do, as opposed to "showing" it.
I really do think this is all a playgroup thing. Technically you can definitely tell another player what you have, but that leaves open the possibility of lies.
September 26, 2017 8:15 p.m.
I remember a article or video or something with a match between two high level players at a tournament and after player "A" was taking some time to make their turn, the player "B" revealed a bolt or some other burn spell from there hand without a card or anything forcing them to reveal it. Player "A" Then immediately scoops up their cards. The article was mostly about something else entirely, but the reveal was not treated as a illegal action. I wish I could find the article.
September 27, 2017 9:44 a.m.
DarkMagician says... #11
LeBeerCat Revealing hidden information (such as cards in hand) to all players is legal in any situation, the question here is whether or not you can show cards in your hand to another player during a multiplayer game without showing it to everybody in the game.
September 27, 2017 2 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #12
yeah LeBeerCat, but that falls in line with the MTR rule I quoted above. In a 1v1 match revealing something to your opponent is the same as revealing said thing to all players, because it's just you and them. The issue we're trying to discern is in multiplayer, the concept of showing something to only select players, rather than everybody at the table.
Edit: DarkMagician beat me to it!
September 27, 2017 2:02 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #13
I don't think a hard, definitive answer for a free-for-all multiplayer scenario exists. The Comprehensive Rules only address information sharing for Team formats, and the Magic Tournament Rules only address it for Team formats and 1v1 play.
Philosophically, there are a lot of "temporary team-ups" that go on in a free-for-all game as people try to hedge their own advantages while trying to keep any one person from running away with the game. I think it's reasonable to take the spirit of information sharing for Team formats and allow someone to share information without revealing it to everybody. However, like others have already said above, this is really something that your play group needs to discuss with each other to come to a consensus.
AMJacker says... #2
"woops! I accidentally dropped this mana leak on the table. You may not want to play any cards until you have 3 extra mana"
September 26, 2017 6:11 p.m.