How do you shuffle a newly made EDH deck for optimum use?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Nov. 3, 2014, 2:27 p.m. by shepherdofire
I just finished making a new edh deck irl and do not want my cards to stay together. Even in Standard I have this problem. How do I combat new deck syndrome?
julianjmoss says... #3
Ok so this may take a while but this is what I do. I shuffle the deck into 11 piles of 9 then shuffle each pile separately. Then I take a pile and divide those cards into the remaining 10 piles. Then shuffle each again and separate the tenth pile into the remaining nine etc
November 3, 2014 2:30 p.m.
I pile shuffle in groups of 7, then again in groups of 13. The I just sort of mash a little.
November 3, 2014 2:30 p.m.
smash10101 says... #5
Pile shuffling does pretty much nothing. I reccommend splitting your deck into 8 similarly sized piles, then shuffling like-sized piles together till you are back to one pile, then repeat. This randomizes faster than just riffle shuffling the whole deck a few times.
November 3, 2014 2:31 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
I generally mash and cut while watching a show or a YouTube video. Helps you focus on something else, and the deck should be well randomized by the end.
I don't buy into the whole pile shuffling thing. It's a pain and it takes a long time for little gain.
November 3, 2014 2:40 p.m.
Pile shuffling is like, mathematically, the best way to do it - but is unecessarily long winded.
November 3, 2014 2:57 p.m.
ChiefBell is correct, but to a point. Don't pile shuffle twice in a row in the exact same way, otherwise you'll be undoing your pile shuffling. That's one of my pet peeves, is when an opponent pile shuffles their deck and presents it to me. I then like to riffle/mash shuffle it a few times to make sure it's sufficiently randomized.
November 3, 2014 3 p.m.
It's ok to pile shuffle in the same way twice, but you have to change the number of piles. You should also try and make sure the number of piles aren't divisible by one another. 6 and 7 is good. 7 and 13 is good. But doing like 2 and 4 would be not good.
November 3, 2014 3:03 p.m.
I should edit the above to say: Dont only pile shuffle in tournaments. It's deterministic and therefore not random at all. That is to say if you do the same pile shuffle technique twice on the same deck of cards you'll always have the same outcome. The best thing to do in competitive play is riffle or mash once or twice so you screw up the order and then you can pile shuffle. If you only pile shuffle the opponent can (rightly) accuse you of cheating because it is very possible to memorise the outcome of a pile shuffle and therefore stack your deck.
In casual play it doesnt matter because no ones going to bother memorising a 100 or 60 card sequence.
November 3, 2014 3:24 p.m.
Nigeltastic says... #14
I often like to pile to start as it breaks up clumps, though for EDH there are no real clumps, so that's a thing. I usually just cut the deck, shuffle each half (riffle and mash), then mash those two together and repeat.
November 3, 2014 4:52 p.m.
I throw all my cards up in the air and then lay on the floor and make snow angels for roughly seven minutes fifteen seconds. Works like a charm assuming you find all your cards.
No really I shuffle lands and non lands separately then take the two stacks and alternate lands and non lands then shuffle the whole bunch however much. This method seems to consistently work
November 3, 2014 5:18 p.m.
shepherdofire says... #16
I will take jraynors method. Thank you all for your help.
November 3, 2014 5:32 p.m.
Jraynors method is flawed. The initial part of his methodology is weaving and not shuffling - its illegal in play. The second part just sounds like any random shuffle. However, to say 'it consistently works' makes it seem not random and therefore inadequate.
November 3, 2014 5:38 p.m.
shepherdofire says... #18
what he means it mixing land with non land and mixng the colors
November 3, 2014 5:41 p.m.
Mixing lands with nonlands in a methodical way is mana weaving. It's not shuffling. The second part of his description may be but the initial part is not shuffling.
November 3, 2014 5:43 p.m.
I'm with ChiefBell here. Weaving your lands and spells is fixing the deck so you get an even distribution of lands & spells. Granted jraynor mentioned that he then shuffles after that, but just plain weaving isn't satisfactory. You need to make sure that your deck is "randomized" and weaving/pile shuffling on its own does not randomize the deck.
November 3, 2014 5:45 p.m.
I wouldn't accept any small shuffle after a weave, I'd call a judge if I didn't see someone SIGNIFICANTLY shuffle after weaving. I'd do it if I didn't see someone riffle shuffle before doing a pile as well.
November 3, 2014 5:48 p.m.
ChiefBell - Whenever I pile shuffle I try to shuffle at least 6-7 times before handing it to my opponent. And if my opponent doesn't do it 4-5 times I tend to reshuffle their deck as well, just to ensure it is random.
And that is something I would recommend for anyone planning on going to FNM or larger tournaments. Make sure your deck is sufficiently randomized, otherwise you might end up like the cheaters. No one wants a 46 month ban :)
November 3, 2014 5:53 p.m.
If you do a single randomizing act before you pile shuffle like a mash or a riffle then it's ok. Pile shuffling produces a distribution that mimics a random shuffling process - however because pile shuffling is done in a methodical way clever people can sometimes do pile shuffling in such a way that they manipulate the deck. To stop being being able to manipulate things by doing memorable and methodical processes just ensure they do at least one random-looking thing before or after.
November 3, 2014 5:57 p.m.
omnipotato says... #25
I don't think this is a question about how to shuffle immediately before facing an opponent in a tournament, more how to shuffle a deck well right after building it in order to playtest. If that is the case, weaving then riffle shuffling a couple of times makes the most sense.
November 3, 2014 6:04 p.m.
WhiteEyesCloudedbyH8 says... #26
Pile Shuffling takes 3x as long as riffle shuffles and doesn't produce a 'more' random deck than riffle shuffles.
Doing a Pile Shuffle once before each game is a way to make sure you are presenting a 60 card deck, or 40, or 100, whatever the format. Because 2/3 of the games we play in events are sideboarded games, we need to make sure we have our deck back to the original 60/40/100 before presenting to our opponent, and Pile shuffling is the best use of ones time, you can randomize it while counting it, plus it's mostly a show of good faith to your opponent and anyone else watching, while there is proof that pile shuffling can be related directly to known cheats, it takes a lot of mental skill and hours of practice, something most MtG players would rather spend deck building.
Point is, Pile shuffling takes so much longer than riffle shuffling and technically doesn't even randomize as well as 7-10 riffle shuffles being rattled off much quicker than even a single pile shuffle.
I won't suggest that anyone Stops Pile Shuffling, but I will advise people to learn how to do it as quickly as possible, as it is the Most Inefficient way, time wise, of randomizing ones deck.
Do research before blindly defending the 'Pile Shuffle'.
November 3, 2014 6:17 p.m.
Pile shuffling produces really high mathematical quasi-measures of randomisation including Kendall tau, and the Wasserstein metric.
Whilst doing only a pile shuffle on its own is inadequate due to potential cheats (my brother can memorise sequences of up to 150 cards for example), doing a really quick riffle and then pile shuffling is a mathematically fantastic way to shuffle your deck.
Do your research before blindly attacking the 'Pile Shuffle'.
November 3, 2014 6:25 p.m.
WhiteEyesCloudedbyH8 says... #28
if your doing riffles before and after your pile then your not defending the pile shuffle alone.
Convince me it's worth the time to pile shuffle, in the sense that if it works so good there should be no need to riffle shuffle.
Otherwise it's a complete waste of time, as you achieve the same potential of randomized from riffle alone whether you pile shuffle or not.
November 3, 2014 6:32 p.m.
I mainly defend pile shuffling because many players are actually really shit at riffle shuffling and therefore don't want to do it 5+ times every game. This is why I mention that from a mathematical viewpoint doing a single act to ensure randomness and then pile shuffling afterwards is sound.
November 3, 2014 6:33 p.m.
WhiteEyesCloudedbyH8 says... #31
I wasn't trying to sound rude, I respect your opinion.
November 3, 2014 6:36 p.m.
When you do multiple pile shuffles your cards end up distributing themselves in such a way that mimics a riffle shuffle - in terms of how it screws up the order of your cards its identical, and in some ways superior. Mathematical measures of the ordering of cards, where they get to in the deck, and which cards get switched with which indicate that it mimics randomness.
So on the surface it sounds perfect.
The one problem it has is that because its following a set method clever people can memorise where their cards will end up if theyve memorised their deck beforehand. Therefore to stop this happening you have to ensure that the player does not know the order of their deck before beginning a pile shuffle. Once you've ensured this there are no problems with pile shuffling whatsoever.
Mathematically its the same as riffle shuffling. Physically its somewhat better for your cards, and easier to do. From a time perspective its slower if youre good at riffling, but faster if you're not. You could also argue that 2 pile shuffles is perhaps faster than 7-8 riffles.
If you're comfortable with riffle shuffling - fine. Keep doing it. If you're not - don't be scared to pile shuffle.
November 3, 2014 6:39 p.m.
I can't riffle shuffle. That's the fact of the matter. I'm bloody awful at it. I pile shuffle as soon as I can after sort of failing at riffling. I can do it really, really quickly now after years of practice, but the biggest argument for me is just I know its mathematically fine and I just like doing it.....
November 3, 2014 6:42 p.m.
You dont even have to riffle before you pile, you jsut screw up the order so theres no way you can have it memorised...............
I mean the most convincing argument is surely that if you physically cannot riffle fast then do something else that you can do faster.............
November 3, 2014 6:46 p.m.
WhiteEyesCloudedbyH8 says... #36
Do you pile shuffle every time you crack a fetch land?
November 3, 2014 6:50 p.m.
No I don't bother to shuffle rigorously usually. If it's in the opponents turn sometimes I will though, yeh.
November 3, 2014 6:54 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #38
Pile shuffle and rifle before a game.
Argument done.
November 3, 2014 6:56 p.m.
shepherdofire says... #39
im just saying that this is for a new, just made deck. im not saying im using this for pre game shuffling. I know how to shuffle but the colors usually clump so i was asking if there was a better way of handling that first shuffle. And I am still right when i play tested it today i hit a pocket of plains that was 12 cards deep. 13 plains. plus i dont play competitively, its casual. so the matter of judges and tournaments and all that is not important. thank you this post is closed, done, the question was answer quite some time ago.
November 3, 2014 7:03 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #40
Good luck trying to get people to stop commenting on this thread.
Welcome to Tappedout.
November 3, 2014 7:06 p.m.
Guys youre right it wouldn't be cool to mana weave in an official place but the method I described is what I do when I'm trying to really randomize my cards after having sorted them by type and name after initial construction. If I recall that is what the original post was talking about.
November 3, 2014 7:11 p.m.
shepherdofire says... #42
YES thank you! Not shuffling for a game but after construction!
November 3, 2014 7:13 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #43
Yes the original post was about how to shuffle a new deck. And I also weave as the very first thing after separating a deck into lands/nonlands either because of new construction or if I am reviewing the list for some reason. It makes me feel better even though I proceed to whole deck mash (I have big hands) 30-40 times afterward.
I personally don't like pile shuffling as a way to shuffle since it is reordering the cards, not randomizing them. I don't like seeing a shuffling routine finished off with anything less than 7+ riffle or mash shuffles, but I also am more than happy to fully randomize someones deck If I feel they are being negligent out of ignorance instead of out of malice.
November 3, 2014 8:06 p.m.
ABadMagicPlayer100 says... #44
What I do is spread them out on a fairly large surface, and than I kind of mix them around in a big pool. After doing this for about 30 seconds, I pull the cards back together (and turn them over so they all face the same way) to get the cards kind of mixed together right after building the deck before you even attempt to actually use the deck in a game. When you play, use your preferred shuffling method.
JWiley129 says... #2
I like to pile shuffle, then riffle shuffle/mash shuffle a few times and repeat 2-3 times to ensure the deck is "fully randomized." Obviously the more you play with the deck the more "randomized" it gets, but just keep shuffling.
I feel like Dory from Finding Nemo... Just keep shuffling, just keep shuffling...
November 3, 2014 2:29 p.m.