Using Faction Names for Color Combinations
General forum
Posted on Feb. 19, 2021, 12:04 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
Many players have adopted the habit of using the names of factions for certain color combinations, most notably the Ravnican guilds for the two-color combinations, the shards of Alara for five of the three-color combinations, and the clans of Tarkir for the other five three-color combinations, but I make an effort to avoid doing so, because not every faction that features such color combinations will be the same as each other faction.
I understand that those terms are popular, because they were the first instances of those color combinations having clear identities, but WotC has emphasized how not every faction with the same colors is the same; for example, the five regions of Ikoria are not the same as the five khan-led clans of Tarkir, and the five dragon-led clans of Tarkir are not the same as the five allied-colored guilds of Ravnica.
What does everyone else say about this? How do you feel about players using the names of specific factions to refer to color combinations? I, myself, do not correct others when they do that, but I specifically avoid doing so, myself.
Omniscience_is_life says... #3
Thus far, the new names for color combinations (from Ikoria and now Strixhaven) are lengthy, difficult to spell/pronounce, and over-fantasized. I do not plan to use them personally.
I think it's kind of like calling Act of Treason a Threaten effect--it's just the name that we use for that thing. No need for it to change IMHO
February 19, 2021 12:30 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #4
I don't think, in shorthand/references to actual gameplay, anyone really uses them to denote more than the colors. Trying specifically to avoid using them, or to use alternatives, just seems like a solution without a problem.
If it's for lore purposes, then I guess it's whatever - but functionally, it's much easier to use the mainstream nomenclature.
February 19, 2021 3:09 p.m.
I do not think the shorthands are a problem--they make conversations a fair bit easier, since saying "Blue White Black" over and over again is much more frustrating than simply using "Esper."
I do think it becomes a bit of a problem when the design team starts to think of color combinations in terms of their guild identity. Most notably: Boros. It seems the vast majority of Red-White cards are focused on aggression--either aggressive creatures or aggressive burn spells (or cards that synergize well with aggressive strategies).
I honestly think Wizards has stopped trying to think about "What could Red and White be together?" and has just decided "Eh, we'll stick with what the Boros Legion does every. single. set."
I'm hopeful we will see a different side of Red/White in Strixhaven... but the Lorehold card we have seen spoiled thus far is, once again, aggressive, with art depicting people using magical machine guns. Does not really bode well for a different take on an increasingly-stale color combination.
February 19, 2021 3:22 p.m.
Maybe it's just something that will "show our age" over time.... many of us will know CMC and say converted mana cost even though now that is changing.... older players will say Grixis and such whereas the next generation of magic players will come to know it as (insert not as cool name).
February 19, 2021 4:36 p.m.
Last_Laugh says... #7
Wedges like Mardu have much older nicknames like Dega from the set Apocalypse back in '01. Ana, Raka, Dega, Ceta, and Necra are the oldschool names for wedges. These names derived from cards like Degavolver that incorporated the 3 wedge colors on a single color card.
February 20, 2021 6:06 a.m.
TriusMalarky says... #8
As Last_Laugh said, the terms we use now are just the most popular, not the oldest. There's actually shards with Treva's Ruins and such, although those are based on elder dragons.
Anyways, the choice to not use them is, of course, yours, and everybody understands when you say 'WUB' instead of Esper. It totally makes sense if you don't like the names.
But, I should warn you, you use similar reasoning as Daddy Des, Toxic King of Magic. Please remember not to force your choice on other people, don't get angry about it, and maybe just don't bring it up. Anyone who knows Desolator might lump you in with his fanbase, and trust me, you don't want to be associated with the guy who is memed into oblivion because he throws a fit every time Wizards prints a counterspell.
February 20, 2021 12:11 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #9
TriusMalarky, who is Desolator? I am not familiar with him, but you are speaking of him in a negative tone, so I presume that he did something to cause people to dislike him.
February 20, 2021 12:30 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #10
Caerwyn, I fully agree with you, because the fact that WotC continues to keep red/white limited to a single archetype is very annoying; why must they continue to focus that color combination specifically on combat? Do they lack the imagination to give red/white an identity outside of combat? Feather was such an excellent card, because she is proof that red/white can have an identity outside of combat, so WotC needs to use that card as an example of how each color combination should not be limited to a specific archetype.
February 20, 2021 12:43 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #11
What current play patterns do you see that have become problematic in the absence of mana burn?
By contrast, what tangible improvement in play would you expect if the rule returned - especially for new players?
February 20, 2021 1:35 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #12
Grubbernaut, why are you asking that? How is that relevant to this discussion?
February 20, 2021 1:41 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #13
My browser had a stroke and left my response in the wrong thread. Disregard, woops.
February 20, 2021 1:59 p.m.
Nerdytimesorwhatever says... #14
Lets just look at the number of syllables (not scientific, some will likely be wrong)
Blue (1)
Black (1)
Green (1)
Red (1)
White (1)
Well that was simple.
A•zo•ri•us (4)
Se•les•nya (3)
Gol•ga•ri (3)
Orz•hov (2)
Bo•ros (2)
Iz•zet (2)
Sim•ic (2)
Dim•ir (2)
Rak•dos (2)
Gr•uul (2)
While Azorius is definitely going to take longer to say whan White Blue, most of the other color combos take the same amount of time, but they are a single word, meaning informational conveyance isn't broken up in the same way.
Ab•zan (2)
Mar•du (2)
Sul•tai (2)
Jes•kai (2)
Te•mur (2)
Grix•is (2)
Nay•a (2)
Jund (1)
Es•per (2)
Bant (1)
All of the Wedges actually save time in terms of syllables and again comport more information in a smaller amount of time.
I believe the general nomenclature is adopted partly due to (in general) increased informational conveyance over a shorter period of time (Only 3 names take more syllables than saying the colors, 7 are the same speed, 8 are a syllable faster, and 2 are 2 syllables faster), partly due to flavor (The words are fun to say!), and mostly due to how entrenched the jargon is in this game.
February 20, 2021 3:30 p.m.
There still aren't really names for the four-color sets. It's either the color lists, whatever the Commander 2016 design had, non-color, or Nephilim names. I think non-color is the most common, but there's no consensus that I've seen.
February 20, 2021 4:41 p.m.
Nerdytimesorwhatever says... #16
Sans-X is two syllables and immediately tells you a ton of information. Flavorful names will have a hard time competing with that, especially the original (unmodified) Nephilim names.
Lets count syllables again yay
Sans-White (2)
Glint-Eye (2)
Glint (1)
Y•dris (2)
Glint is modified, but its technically the fastest way to say "Four not white colors".
Sans-Blue (2)
Dune-Brood (2)
Dune (1)
Sa•ski•a (3)
Again, only the modified Nephilim name is faster. Dune-Brood is the same speed, and is less immediately recollectable than "Not blue".
Sans-Black (2)
Ink-Tread•er (3)
Ink (1)
Ky•nai•os and Ti•ro (6)
Yeah, Ink does not get across the same information. Its again an actual thing, not a made up word. So free association may occur, slowing informational exchange.
Sans-Red (2)
Witch-Maw (2)
Witch (1)
A•tra•xa (3)
Witch could be referential to any number of things, again, poor naming decision.
Sans-Green (2)
Yore-Till•er (3)
Yore (1)
Bre•ya (2)
I actually like this modified Nephilim name. As is the trend, its a syllable faster than sans-X, but thankfully its a weird enough word in this case that it's unlikely to be misunderstood.
Tl;dr All original Nephilim names for 4 colors need to be modified to be faster than Sans-X, and only one or two of them has a name that won't be confused with cards throughout multiple formats. Until cool weird one syllable words for 'em come out, we will likely be stuck with the overly clinical sounding terms.
February 21, 2021 12:55 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #17
I think white's design space is forced into weenie waaaay too much. Actually, I've spent years studying game design on several metrics as one of my hobbies(I'm actually in the process of an indie horror title rn) and I can't think of anything. White's design space is actually very confusing and hard to make 'powerful'.
Also, DesolatorMagic is this youtuber who is enjoyable to watch entirely because he's literally just yelling constantly. "Wizards is ruining the game, they printed removal spell number 3251, OH MY GOSH THIS IS GOING INTO EVERY CONTROL DECK"
Basically he's grumpy.
February 21, 2021 5:02 p.m.
For , is there any way to tie stone/rock into a unique focus? There are a lot of cards in that theme and color combination - Chained to the Rocks , Earth Servant , Nahiri, the Lithomancer , Calciderm , etc. It seems like a good place to develop, but I have to admit, I can't think of anything for this theme that isn't combat oriented.
In a game about combat, the two colors with a biggest focus on direct confrontation combine to make a set dedicated to direct confrontation in combat. They've gotten some other tricks with Outlaws' Merriment and Zenith Flare , but not much.
Here's a thought: self-sacrifice tricks. is willing to sacrifice itself for its community. is willing to sacrifice itself if it's exciting enough. I can envision a red-white card that says something like "Creatures you control have 'Sacrifice this creature: something something damage something protection from whatever.'" They have the small creatures to make it pay off. It might be moving into a little bit, but that's happened before, most obviously with Smiting Helix . To quote DemonDragonJ, what does everyone else say about this? How do you feel about getting self-sacrifice tricks as a unique non-combat ability?
February 21, 2021 5:22 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #20
legendofa I would love that! White is certainly leaning into recursion with cards such as Trove Warden , Promise of Tomorrow , and Idol of Endurance , so they could feasibly work that into the flavor of sacrificing--by returning as an Angel, or some such something.
I feel like WotC are pushing Red more into the Damage! Damage! Impulsive Draw! Damage! category, but they can surely retain some of those aspects and add in this new aspect.
Overall: I say let's do it. An insurrection upon Wizards' HQ on Tuesday, anyone?
February 21, 2021 5:35 p.m.
TriusMalarky Ability 1 + Ability 4 is kinda sorta the approach I'm thinking about. The rest of it is pretty typical red-white, but I'm going to pet my ego a little bit and take tokens + sacrifice as a sign I'm on the right track.
February 21, 2021 5:39 p.m.
I'm going to do a bit of research, then start a new thread on red-white options and let this one get back to color combination names.
February 21, 2021 5:48 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #23
legendofa, I do not wish to dampen your enthusiasm, because I, also, am glad to see red/white being expanded outside of its usual identity, but the final ability of Lorehold command feels very black, and not red/white.
February 21, 2021 9:39 p.m.
DemonDragonJ Agreed. It's completely black, going off Thallid Soothsayer , Village Rites , and that sort of thing. But it was printed on a red-white card, so there might a change in the wind cominng.
February 21, 2021 11:45 p.m.
Evry1sfavteddy says... #25
DemonDragonJ Feather is actually quite on par with Boros. Spells that target your own cteatures tend to be buffs, protection or combat trickery.
legendofa says... #2
It's synecdoche. Or maybe metonymy, it's been a while. It's a shorthand device, referring to the whole color combination by a subset of it. It's just as easy to say "Sultai" as "blue-green-black" when everyone knows what it means.
I do it fairly frequently, and I don't have a problem with either faction names or color lists.
February 19, 2021 12:29 p.m.