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adanaz: Yeah it's definitely grindy, this deck is about grinding the enemy to a stall and keep them there. Basically if you enjoy playing lantern control you'll probably enjoy this, otherwise probably not :)
February 22, 2018 11:21 a.m.
Probably I'd cut a thoughtseize, 10 hand disruption spells seem a little overkill to me.
Supreme verdict is the classic Esper Control wipe, but Terminus is also a boardwipe that plays very well with Jace since you can brainstorm it to the top and play it with miracle cost in opponents turn by casting Opt or think twice.
I personally think 3 copies of Jace will end up being optimal in most decks because despite the amazing power he's still 4 mana and can't be cast in multiples, so not really a card you want to draw too many of.
I'd also play 4-5 counterspells, 2 leak, 2 remand and maybe a cryptic.
February 19, 2018 1:48 p.m.
Stubborn denial seems strange in a deck that doesn't reliably land a 4+ power creature in the first 1-3 turns, it's great in decks that run Tasigur and the like but not here, it would probably be better to have soething like mana leak, spell pierce or remand in that slot.
Thought scour doesn't seem to make much sense in a control deck without Snapcaster mage, delve cards or other graveyard value/interaction, I don't see lingering souls and think twice being enough to motivate it, you'd be better off with Opt or just more serum visions.
I would definitely run a couple board sweepers like Supreme Verdict in a list like this.
February 19, 2018 1 p.m.
Polupus: Well yes and no, you can no longer use Sunforger to cast Research/Development directly from the library, which is certainly a bit of a nerf since you used to be able to run a singleton R/D and 2 in the SB, find it with your first Sunforger activation and then chain them in that way.
However I have updated the deck to work with these new rules by simply running 3 copies of R/D maindeck with a mana base suited to casting them from your hand. Finding them is usually not that hard since you are running quite a lot of thinning, tutoring and card draw and the actual mana cost is still just 2, and the deck can win just fine without casting Research. It is also more resilient against counters etc to have multiple copies and now there is more pure answer slots in the SB so all is well more or less, I haven't found this version significantly weaker, though there a fewer turn 3 and turn 4 kills without the 3rd mox.
Everything works exactly as advertised in this primer, the infinite combo and all the SB cards etc. There are a few cards that are no longer work as sideboard options such as odds/ends and they have been removed.
TL:DR: You now run more copies of R/D and cast them from your hand, everything else works the same as before.
February 17, 2018 2:05 a.m.
Starting to look pretty solid :)
February 16, 2018 11:14 a.m.
Thanks hamiam, love your silly combo decks :)
February 16, 2018 11:08 a.m.
StankP.I. I'm currently testing a 2nd copy of Assault formation instead of tower defense since I've ran into interactive decks managing to keep me off Doran/formation for too long, and these have been some of my tougher matchups.
February 15, 2018 3:08 p.m.
StankP.I. well the tower defense often represents 10-20 extra damage, usually translating to 2 creatures connecting being lethal. I feel that it's really good to have a way to close out the game fast when you only get that one window to attack, especially as aggressive decks will often attack you believing that they can trade attacks for 1 more turn and win the race, and you just kill them with tower defense.
A more defensive build could cut it and play a maindeck ghostly prison, greater auramancy or something. My first build had greater auramancy and a creature aura with totem armor to lock down an unkillable Zur or Doran but it was just too slow IMO.
February 14, 2018 6:15 p.m.
StankP.I. I've been testing some control matchups today and I've found that a 3rd Chord really improves the deck a lot. Sidisi's Faithful hasn't really done the work I hoped for but Dragon's Eye Savants really impressed me in these games, both in terms of going 1 point over many of the popular big creatures some control decks use as wincons in modern but also because they double as a 3drop with hand spying, seeing my opponents hand on turn 2 after dropping a bird turn 1 won me 3 games by letting me know if it was safe or not to drop my Doran on turn 3, saving me from playing into a counterspell or sweeper so I could keep up Chord mana instead. So I've ended up dropping 1 sidisi and 1 tower defense for the 3rd chord and 2nd savants.
February 14, 2018 12:10 p.m.
Glad to help, hope the deck turns out the way you want it.
Exquisite Blood+Sanguine Bond does NOT lead to a draw at all because it ends with your opponent going down to 0 life and losing the game, which ends the loop. It only leads to a draw if there is an effect active preventing him from losing the game at 0 life such as if he casts Angel's Grace or has a Phyrexian Unlife in play, which would cause the combo to go on for ever. That's not a very common scenario though and normally the combo will simply loop until he is at 0 life.
Keeper and Mavren looks like great fits if you go with Path of Bravery since they both widen the board.
February 14, 2018 6:33 a.m.
StankP.I. Thanks :D
It's true I haven't found that much use for Everlasting Torment so far, but I also haven't played against Soul Sisters et al yet. My thinking with that card was that if you can get it out against Soul Sisters type decks you could easily race them with your much bigger threats. On the other hand Ghostly Prison is also quite good against them and life gain isn't a very common deck to face anyways.
I think Choke might be a good idea, unfortunately you'll hose your own islands but it should turn out in your favor against control and hopefully you can get a BOP on the field to get blue, I Will defenitely test that and see what happens.
Not looking forward to Jace control meta and modern miracles, yuck...
February 14, 2018 5:02 a.m.
Forsaken Sactuary is just a bad dual land plain and simple, don't play it. Even Evolving Wilds is superior. If you want additional dual colored taplands beyond Scoured barrens you have a strictly better cheap option in Temple of Silence.
February 13, 2018 8:21 a.m.
First of all don't let me stop you from making the deck YOU want to play, it's perfectly possible that you've found synergies and strategies that I'm missing. :)
You could absolutely make a controlling variant, but in that case it should probably not play Path of bravery since that card scales inpower with the number of creatures on the board, and probably not vampires either. Basically trying to force a naturally aggressive tribe (vampires) and theme (life gain) into a defensive strategy leads to identity crisis and the deck might up being fairly weak in in both areas.
B/W control is definitely a thing though, usually quite plainswalker heavy (liliana, Ob nixilis, Gideon and sometimes Sorin. Ajani belongs in aggro IMO, not control) with a lot of removal and discard spells to to buy time for them to run away with the game. In this case Sanguine Bond would possibly be used as a combo piece with Exquisite Blood, and some board prescence achieved either with tokens (lingering souls) or a few big creatures like Tasigur, the Golden Fang or Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet (Kalitas might be good in a vampire tribal too actually)
If your goal is to be more midrange, in between control and aggro you might want your creatures to be fairly big and rely on control the early turns in order to prepare the field for them. I don't personally think W/B or vampires are suited that well for midrange though, at least it can't compete well with the true midrange BGx decks.
As for the land base. IMO you don't need more than 4-6 dual lands in a two colored deck with 24 lands. Tapped lands are slow and you don't want too many of them so that you end up playing tapped lands both turn 1 and 2 leaving you playing behind your ideal curve. If you want to be aggressive and have consistent turn 1 plays I would go for the 1 Shambling vent as the only tapland and then 4 isolated chapel with 19 basics. If you want to play a little slower with more power and start your curve at 2 mana I'd play 3 Scoured Barrens, 1 Shambling vents, 2 isolated chapel and 18 basics. The right lands for the right deck identity. This assuming more expensive options are taken off the table.
February 13, 2018 8:11 a.m.
CommanderNeyo: Thank you.
How good is the deck? Well, I've put quite a lot of time into building, testing and playing this deck, comparing it with other sunforger builds and trying to push it's performance as far as I can. I personally think it is just about the most competitive thing you can do specifically with Sunforger, however there is a limit to how competitive you CAN get with it. I don't think it's going to win anything big.
It has several turn 4 possible wins, has good mana, is ok-ish in consistency and can be surprisingly resilient. It can be explosive or grindy as needed.
BUT it suffers quite a bit in tournaments from the same SB hate people bring for Affinity and Lantern, especially Stony Silence, and it also suffers a bit from having it's own sideboard stacked with sunforger targets which is a strength but also a weakness in the sense that you're not bring the usual silver bullets like Blood Moon, Rest in Peace and so on.
I have top 4d a couple FNMs with it, you do have some really good matchups. For example it rolls all over any mill based strategy, it's good against lantern, it's good against any deck that is low on interaction and needs 4+ turns to kill you because you will combo kill them on turn 4 or 5 in most cases, so it's pretty good against valakut, tron if they stumble on the tron pieces a turn, pure aggro decks if you can land an early blocker or kill their first threat, and so on.
It's a little weak against decks with lots of mainboard interaction such as BGx midrange, you best bet there is if you can tempo them by responding to their removal with a boros charm to buy the turn to get to your first Sunforger activation.
Oncy you get to the point where you can activate sunforger you have game against almost anything, so the matchups depend very much on whether they can stop you from getting there in time or not.
It's requires quite a lot of practice and thinking, since you can fairly complex chains of answering through researching for the correct cards and understanding when you have an onboard kill, which are often easy to miss so it's easy to incorrectly start setting up a control game with research when you can actually just kill them. For example a double striked equipped Kazuul hits for 14+ so a simple boros charm can close the game against a greedy mana base, seeing all those edge cases is really key to the deck being good.
February 13, 2018 12:24 a.m.
Scion_of_Darkness: I've actually been using Dawn Charm in this deck quite a bit, I had it in my first version, it looks very good in theory but as it turned out over the course of many games it's very seldom the best card to fetch either if mainboarded or with research. Especially since settle the wreckage was printed you have more powerful options for each of those effects.
It would make most sense as a MB inclusion since it's more flexible and cheap than powerful, you'll want to maximize the raw power of SB cards since you'll almost never cast them from hand outside of enchantment removal, but I don't think it's good enough to replace any mainboard cards, the problem is that it's a pure "answer" card and IMO there isn't space for any potantially dead draws in the deck, it is better to have two copies of Boros charm for example that doubles as face damage and fetch all pure answers from the SB, that is kinda the whole design principle for this deck.
So that's my own experience with Dawn Charm so far, but I still agree that it's a strong and very versatile Sunforger target! Go ahead and try it if you build the deck.
I'll go ahead and add it to the list of good sideboard options in the description.
February 11, 2018 8:55 p.m.
I like it a lot, but in testing I find it a little too common to lack a goblin for grenade, or an artifact for the artifact sac spells, or a 2nd mountain for the 2 drops.
I feel like it should be possible to make this a little more consistent.
I think I would cut 2 shard volley and 2 increasing vengeance to add 2 mountains, the 4th kuldotha rebirth and a 4th ornithopter or memnite. That should up the consistency in all 3 areas.
February 10, 2018 11:24 p.m.
Well, you only need a minimum of 1 manamorphose and 1 Desperate Ritual in the deck though, so it's not crazy expensive. I get it though, sometimes things are just too expensive.
But simply controlling the game with reseach + sunforger is quite fun and viable too, just remember to go though the cards and make sure they are all legal targets, for example Day's Undoing and Molten Psyche are not legal targets since they are sorceries (and one of them is blue on top of that).
Easiest way to look through legal targets is with the advanced search funtion wotc's website. Here is a readymade search for all the legal sunforger targets in modern. 7 pages long :)
Who knows, maybe there's even a budget version of the infinite in there somewhere :P (I'm pretty sure there isn't, I've worked on my deck a long time and gone through all legal targets)
February 8, 2018 11:16 p.m.
February 8, 2018 4:18 p.m.
CrapdosNoob, I have considered Spire of industry replacing GLimmervoid and I might do it eventually
One scenario where Glimmervoid is currently better is when I want to play a turn 2 Puresteel Paladin and a 0 mana equipment afterwards to draw the card. My life total can also sometimes matter quite a bit, especially against aggressive decks. The ability to turn the corner with big sunforger plays without losing life on turns 4, 5 or 6 can be improtant.
On the other hand Glimmervoid can be stuck in the hand or your opponent can punish you for playing it early by destroying the artifact, But I honestly haven't had a big problem with this.
I think it's actually a toss up which is better in that slot, but Spire is much cheaper so for someone who wants to build this and buy the lands it seems the more reasonable choice.
I'll try it out some and see how it goes, maybe play one of each to eliminate the risk of starting with 2 voids in hand which can be very awkward.
February 7, 2018 7:35 p.m.
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