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JohnnyCRO You got a point. I played my Daghatar on paper for the first time in my playgroup (who's mostly composed of pretty High-Power lists) last Saturday, and I was amazed by the results. I guess I get too easily hyped.
I'm not a regular cEDH player either, which makes my argument in Daghatar's favor even more awkward, but I just wanted to share my experience of its abilities to take up the advantage on a more casual game and thought it was accurate. I realize now I wrote my previous comment with too much enthusiasm...
I'm not trying to say that Daghatar is at the same power level as other well established Abzan commanders (like Karador, Ghave, Anafenza, etc.), but I just want to show that he isn't a terrible and unlogical option either.
The whole point of my previous comment was based on the definition given to Tier 5 commanders listed there: In the context of this list, the Casual category is reserved for Generals that don't provide a mechanical reason to play them - some are vanilla creatures, others are entirely unusable without significant workarounds.
Even if Daghatar isn't the most competitive choice, he still offers a lot of opportunities for a powerful casual commander-centered deck. Its abilities are far from being meaningless and you can build a consistent deck that revolves around him and uses him as a combo piece/win condition you get permanent access to. IMO, when I wrote my previous comment, it wasn't in adequation with its classification on the Tier list. I felt like he's more than just a vanilla creature, but I can from now on also understand why he's counted among them. While he needs some set-up to pull off a combo, he has the potential of being a game ender. But pretty much the same is true for a lot of, if not every, commanders when you've access to infinite mana + another combo piece onto the battlefield. So he's, in fact, nothing better than any other multicolored commander listed on the Casual Tier.
That said, I have to thank your fair criticism. It helped me to realize I was overreacting/over-evaluating things without any realistic background to defend my talking. It was... dumb. I understand why the mods considered him as a vanilla commander.
The decklist I shared was just standing as a rough example of a decklist trying to exploit Daghatar abilities in order to make it a powerhouse. I thought it was a great addition to support my poorly formulated point. It doesn't really matter.
So in conclusion, that suggestion was probably a bit too spontaneous, based on the fact that I just finished building Daghatar on paper and was too hyped after testing him only once since then.
February 12, 2019 12:23 p.m.
First of all, thank you so much for all your efforts at keeping this Tier list so consistent! It's always nice to have some Tier references to look at when we're planning to brew with some new EDH ideas.
I have a little suggestion to present because I was surprised to see Daghatar the Adamant in the Low-Power Tier.
Considering Daghatar the Adamant as a commander that gives you access to 3 colors and a situational (needs at least one another creature on board (could be under an opponent control)) mana sink with infinite mana (by no means as powerful as other commanders that provide mana sink by their own like, for example - pretty much a bad example given that she provides access to blue, Oona, Queen of the Fae ), I think he at least deserves a spot in the Mid-Power table. With infinite mana (not really hard to pull off with black to tutor all the needed pieces), you may put infinite counters on target X other creature(s) and you have infinite ETB triggers. It makes it a pretty decent/solid pick for a casual EDH deck, and I could even see him as a tricky commander for competitive purposes (that being said, I don't play much cEDH and he certainly won't be good enough).
He also synergizes beautifully with persist mechanic alongside some sacrifice outlet in order to have infinite ETB on cards such as Woodfall Primus . In the same colors, Gaveh is without a single doubt better for this archetype, but Daghatar remains a potent Commander pick.
Here's my casual Daghatar decklist if you mind giving it a look > Adamant Rules.
I decided not to run any sort of infinite mana combo because I find them boring (personal opinion) and I wanted to stay on a casual level to interact fully with my playgroup. So it's not the best template if you're looking for an optimized Daghatar list, but I'm convinced he has some powerful tricks' potential.
February 12, 2019 5:55 a.m.
Amazing deck and presentation! Looks really pleasurable to pilot. I love all the synergies you've built between Haakon and Elenda.
Here comes a few suggestions I've in mind :
Bitterblossom > not the funniest card you could find, but it is a real powerhouse alongside Attrition , Anointed Procession , Skullclamp , Dictate of Erebos etc. / I was a bit surprised it wasn't included.
Bloodghast > same note.
Enduring Renewal > makes you a bit more vulnerable against control match-ups as they can see and play around what you're trying to do, but it has the potential of being extra spicy there - giving you a lift at building up your combos.
Academy Rector > absurdly good at tutoring some of your combos. Expensive (money speaking) nonetheless.
Forbidden Orchard > fuel for Elenda against creatureless decks. Taps for any color.
Grave Betrayal > greedy and expensive card that only works against decks running valuable creatures. Good fun, poor consistency.
February 11, 2019 7:45 a.m.
Pikobyte The idea reminded me of so many cool games that I could not help myself writing you down a novel!
And I totally understand your point. Always seeking for more ''competitiveness'' fastly becomes boring and kills all the fun of EDH. That's why I dismantled Hokori in the end - even if it was solid and flavorful, it was just too disruptive and unfun to face for other players.
If you like cards that we rarely see, give a try to Barl's Cage . I only tried it once in a control-ish Azorius Taigam, Ojutai Master deck and I was amazed by its potential. It's still pretty much a funny card, and isn't too disruptive either.
If you feel like you're still lacking card draw, there are multiple viable options you don't actually run. As mentioned in my previous comment, Dawn of Hope is likable. Armistice is playable and good at politics. Alms Collector is a suitable meta depending tool. Tamiyo's Journal , Book of Rass (the book basically is a non-black, lot worse, Erebos/Greed) are both a bit expensive for their respective effects, but they're also effective if you really need that.
If you don't mind giving it a look, as I'm looking for some feedbacks to ameliorate my own brews, here's the last of my EDH decklist I updated on this site : Ishai and Ludevic
February 10, 2019 12:30 p.m.
Oh, I forgot some things. I'll just list there below without any real ordering.
Ward of Bones is an annoying card. Nevermore prevent your opponent casting Vannifar on T4. Suppression Field slows down Vannifar and any other creature's abilities (fine with creatures you're running). Scepter of Dominance is something to consider (even if it's slow, it taps anything each turn). Mishra's Helix (which was one of my favourite card in Hokori stax) is strong alongside Extraplanar Lens and makes a good mana sink that slows down your opponents.
February 10, 2019 10:12 a.m.
Nice brew, neat idea to counter those clunky and annoying Vannifars!
As smne who played Mono-W Stax for a while, with the amazing Hokori, Dust Drinker at the helm, I'll share with you what thoughts inspire me your sweet Linvala decklist.
(Even if it has already been pointed out before, I wanna say that I also love the Urborg combo. It's unexpectable and freakin' gud!)
Let's start by the beginning: mana fixation. Extraplanar Lens is insane in every monocolored archetype, so it's a quite logic inclusion you made here. Nonetheless, I suggest you to go for Snow-covered lands to synergize better with it - that way you won't give a lift to your opponents playing white.
Pearl Medallion and Sol Ring are basics, nothing really worth to say about it. Thran Dynamo and Worn Powerstone are more debatable. I don't know what is your budget issue, but if you want a competitve list, Mana Crypt , Mana Vault , Grim Monolith , Mind Stone , Everflowing Chalice etc. are all better options. Dynamo and Powerstone aren't bad cards, but they just come after those ones if you really do need a solid ''ramp'' package.
Opal Palace feels badly slow and ineffective in a monocolored stax deck. You won't win the game by taking up the board with your creatures armed of a little +1/+1 counter.
You have notable exclusions in your lands for a mono-white. Eiganjo Castle is the first card that comes through mind. Buried Ruin also is a recursive tool you should consider, even over Inventors' Fair . If you manage to find one, Ancient Tomb has its place there replacing Temple of the False God .
At its final shape, my Hokori decklist was running a powerful Crucible of Worlds package including Wasteland , Strip Mine , Dust Bowl , Flagstones of Trokair , Lotus Vale and City of Traitors . I was up to 39 lands, not counting Maze of Ith .
Now let's jump straight into your gameplan!
So... you're planning to focus your eyes on ruining Vannifar's day. To help with this strategy of being the nasty ''combo killer'' guy, I think you should put in some additional pieces of disruption.
That said, I don't know which Vannifar's version(s) your playgroup perform with. If it's a Thornbite Staff / Intruder Alarm one, things would be easier to calm down and you won't need such a heavy stax package - you'll need more single-target/multi-target removals though. And if it's the other one, certainly the most popular now (and also the most powerful/absurd), based on many shenanigans around the creatures Vannifar brings to the table, you'll need more stax support.
One of the very best cards you could add to stop all those creature-centered combos is Humility . This card is broken, this card is stupid. It even disables etb abilities. The only way your opponent has to go through is to destroy it with a creatureless source / or with a ''casting'' effect (like Ulamog has).
Single-handly, Humility tears apart most of the competitive Vannifar lists. However, based on the fact that it is still fragile to enchantments/permanents removals, you'll have to build a defensive shield for your stuff. Vannifar lists often keep a strong package of cheap permanents' removals in their pocket (like Beast Within for example), so you'll need to play carefully.
There's a lot of different ways you can head in order to reinforce your permanents' presence on the battlefield. A pretty simple and most of the time effective, despite of its ccm, you already included is Avacyn, Angel of Hope . I think you still lack a way to cheat her casting cost out to make her a stable and destructive power house.
Stax ''enchantment'' strategy is imo one of the most viable and solid strategy. With Academy Rector (amazing alongside your High Market ), you'll be able to search the exact piece you need to lock the game in your favor.
Notable stax exclusions :
Static Orb > staple
Storage Matrix > staple
Arena of the Ancients > staple
Thalia, Heretic Cathar > staple
Lodestone Golem > Considering all the artifacts you're playing, ~ seems like a consistent pick for your draft.
Ethersworn Canonist > personal preference there. I always loved ~ in my stax deck. Synergizes well with Teshar.
Phyrexian Revoker > another personal preference. Always found ~ useful.
Pithing Needle > destroys Vannifar for 1 mana.
Orb of Dreams > more of an Hokori all stars card, but could also be good here.
Sphere of Resistance > staple, should be played carefully to slow down your opponents combos and not threw away as soon as possible like I see many people casting it
Mana Tithe > unexpected white counterspell - another Hokori all stars... I don't know if it would be any good there
Other cards to consider :
Platinum Angel > slow down combos, create a premium target for every combo player removals.
Greater Auramancy > protection for your enchantments
Sensei's Divining Top > not the best card draw you could find, but provides something White struggles to accomplish
Barl's Cage > strong mana sink against Vannifar and creature-heavy decks
Condemn > more removals
Abolish > more removals
Dispatch > more removals
Catastrophe > clears everything except enchantments/artifacts
Approach of the Second Sun > win con
Idyllic Tutor > searching for Humility
A bunch of meta depending stax tools :
Cards I'd cut from your list :
Martyr's Bond > Slow and unreliable on this brew. As you're not sacrificing any kind of permanent on your own, you'll struggle to get any value out of it outside of a lost political blast deflagrating when the game should already be over. Unless you add in some cards like World Queller , it defenitly doesn't deserve a slot imo.
Bishop of Rebirth > a lot of people seems to give love to this card recently. However, I personally think it is just a bad inclusion. You spend 5 mana on a understated body and you have to wait a whole turn before getting value out of it IF you are in the researched scenario. There will be times where you have Boots or Greaves on board and this will be an insane mini-Sun Titan, but the situation is too rare to justify its presence.
Sublime Archangel > No real interest here. Good creature but doesn't provide anything for the stax strategy.
Gift of Immortality / True Conviction > weird ''win con'' heavily situational cards based on creatures. There is some logic behind Gift, but it's just too much of a unreliable idea. True Conviction has nothing to do here... it's 6 mana spend to lose the control on the game. If you're searching for card advantage and a bit of healing, go for the brand new Dawn of Hope (also is a good mana sink).
Blackblade Reforged > intersting alternative win con. Feels slow nonetheless.
Emeria Shepherd > too slow for my liking.
Whispersilk Cloak > can't understand what this does in a deck full of flyiers and tapping effects.
Finally, as you want to challenge Vannifar, which is a blue deck, you'll need something to deal with the classical Cyclonic Rift . Teferi's Protection is a good solution (and it could also protects you form a lot of various situations / removals / etc.), but I'm sure you can find a lot of other response.
I hope you'll find useful ideas in this comment. Thanks a lot for sharing this, it reminds me good times. Keep up the good work, keep up brewing!
February 10, 2019 9:40 a.m.
Commander / EDH
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|Playing since||Commander 2014|
|Avg. deck rating||None|
|Helper Rank||None yet|
|Favorite formats||Pre-release, Commander / EDH, Planechase|
|Suppressed formats||Legacy, Vintage, Canadian Highlander|
|Last activity||5 days|