Trample vs indestructible

Asked by mohcom 10 years ago

3/3 trample attacking vs 0/1 indestructible blocking

please to into detail about what would happen, citing rules and definitions from the rule book. I am very confused with the wording on this, I say the 2 damage goes through, but my friend says lethal damage is not dealt because of the indestrucible

Drilnoth says... #1

The trampler would assign 1 damage to the blocker and the other 2 can be assigned to the player or planeswalker being attacked. No ability other than deathtouch modifies the definition of lethal damage. "Lethal damage" is, barring deathtouch, damage which would cause the damage marked on a creature to equal or exceed its toughness. Indestructible creatures still take damage, and though they aren't destroyed by the damage that "lethal damage" threshold is unchanged. The same even goes for abilities such as protection which actively prevent the damage; if your trampler was green and the 0/1 had protection from green instead of indestructible, then you'd still be able to trample 2 over.

From the comprehensive rules (most relevant parts highlighted):

119.6. Damage marked on a creature remains until the cleanup step, even if that permanent stops being a creature. If the total damage marked on a creature is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed as a state-based action (see rule 704). All damage marked on a permanent is removed when it regenerates (see rule 701.12, "Regenerate") and during the cleanup step (see rule 514.2).

510.1c A blocked creature assigns its combat damage to the creatures blocking it. If no creatures are currently blocking it (if, for example, they were destroyed or removed from combat), it assigns no combat damage. If exactly one creature is blocking it, it assigns all its combat damage to that creature. If two or more creatures are blocking it, it assigns its combat damage to those creatures according to the damage assignment order announced for it. This may allow the blocked creature to divide its combat damage. However, it can't assign combat damage to a creature that's blocking it unless, when combat damage assignments are complete, each creature that precedes that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that's being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that's actually dealt. An amount of damage that's greater than a creature's lethal damage may be assigned to it.

June 24, 2014 12:34 a.m.

mohcom says... #2

My friend is hung up on the check that Indestructible ignores. Does the check still happen? and what happens during the check?

June 24, 2014 12:52 a.m.

Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #3

The problem here is that your friend is using the literal interpretation of lethal damage rather than 510.1c's definition of lethal damage. Note that literally lethal is not an official game term; rather, I'll be using it here to explain what's happening.

When a creature with trample is blocked by a creature with indestructible, the attacking player must assign enough damage to the blocker that the resulting damage, if dealt and not influenced by prevention or redirection effects or by indestructible, would be literally lethal. This is a very long, but sometimes more clear, explanation of 510.1c's definition of lethal damage.

Because the blocker has indestructible, no amount of damage dealt to it will be literally lethal. However, damage assignment doesn't care about literal lethality. Rather, damage assignment cares about lethal damage as defined by 510.1c. That definition does not account for indestructible, prevention effects, redirection effects, doubling effects, or anything else that would modify the outcome of the damage dealt to the blockers.

The attacking player would assign at least 1 damage to the 0/1 blocker. Then, he or she may assign the remaining 2 damage divided as he or she chooses between the blocker and the defending player. It doesn't actually matter that the 0/1 has indestructible and the damage assigned to it is not literally lethal. The game only checks that the amount of damage assigned to it (plus any damage marked on it from earlier in the turn) would be considered lethal if the damage or destruction events were not modified.

Of note is that trample does account for deathtouch, so an attacking creature with both trample and deathtouch allows the attacking player to assign 1 damage to each of that creature's blockers, then any remaining damage to the defending player or planeswalker.

June 24, 2014 1:13 a.m.

mohcom says... #4

Much appreciated, your explanation is far clearer than mine was, thank you

June 24, 2014 1:45 a.m.