How does Djinn Illuminatus work in conjunction with Overload?
Asked by MistahFixIt 12 years ago
Say I have Djinn Illuminatus in play, and I Overload Dynacharge when I cast it. The Djinn gives Dynacharge the ability to Replicate, but if I choose to use it, do I pay its original mana cost, or the Overloaded cost? If it causes me to pay the card's original mana cost, do the copies still retain their Overloaded state?
I'm not sure of the answer, but here's the relevant rules text:
702.54a Replicate is a keyword that represents two abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the spell with replicate is on the stack. The second is a triggered ability that functions while the spell with replicate is on the stack. "Replicate [cost]" means "As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may pay [cost] any number of times" and "When you cast this spell, if a replicate cost was paid for it, copy it for each time its replicate cost was paid. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for any of the copies." Paying a spell's replicate cost follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e-g.
702.94a Overload is a keyword that represents two static abilities: one that functions from any zone in which the spell with overload can be cast and another that functions while the card is on the stack. Overload [cost] means "You may choose to pay [cost] rather than pay this spell's mana cost" and "If you chose to pay this spell's overload cost, change its text by replacing all instances of the word 'target' with the word 'each.'" Using the overload ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e-g.
I would suspect this means that you cannot overload one of the replicated copies, since the replicate cost is explicitly stated as being the card's CMC (ie., in your example, the Djinn has given Dynacharge "Replicate: R"). Nowhere in either the rules for replicate nor the text box of the Djinn are alternate costs mentioned, which IMO means they cannot be paid (although I would think that additional costs like kicker can). However, the fact that overload [cost] means "You may choose to pay [cost] rather than pay this spell's mana cost" gives a bit of wiggle room for interpretation.
I would have also thought overloading was only done upon casting, which would exclude you from doing it when you replicate (since replicating a spell doesn't count as casting it). 702.94 says to pay the overload cost "when you pay this spell's mana cost", but the actual cards say "You may cast this spell for its overload cost".
Let's see what an expert will say.
October 20, 2012 12:12 p.m.
Hmmm ... after reading the full replicate paragraph again, you might be in luck. Since it says "copy it for each time its replicate cost was paid", and an overloaded spell has actually had its text changed, this means you'll copy the spell in the form/mode it was cast. I would think you'd be getting overloaded copies as long as the original spell was cast with overload.
October 20, 2012 12:17 p.m.
http404error says... #4
The overloaded spell on the stack indeed reads with 'each', but also has the mana cost at the top of the card (despite the fact that you didn't pay it). This means you can replicate it for it's regular mana cost, but get the overload effects for each replication, as long as you overload it the first time.
Confirmed by multiple rules experts in various articles (maybe even on the Mothership, can't recall).
October 20, 2012 12:59 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #5
This isn't really something you need a rules expert for; the cards themselves explain everything. Let's walk through it:
Dynacharge 's reminder text for overload states that when a spell is overloaded, you replace each instance of the word target with the word each.
Djinn Illuminatus gives each of your instants and sorceries Replicate Z, where Z is equal to that spell's mana cost. Replicate's reminder text states that you copy the spell for each time its replicate cost was paid.
Since copying a spell means you copy all text and decisions made for it (including alternate and additional costs paid), each replica of an overloaded spell will also be overloaded. Note that the replicate cost for Dynacharge with Djinn Illuminatus under your control will only be R - the replicate cost is always the mana cost, regardless of what costs you actually paid to cast the spell.
October 20, 2012 1:51 p.m.
You can replicate it and the replicate cost is the original mana cost, but the copies won't be overloaded.
The relevant rule is 706.2, which reads 'When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object's characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by "as . . . enters the battlefield" and "as . . . is turned face up" abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.'
Unfortunately, because overload is a text-changing effect, replicated copies of overloaded spells don't see the overload text and only see the original text.
May 22, 2016 6:03 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
@weslyphon: This question was answered four years ago. Please check the post dates before commenting.
When you copy a spell, you copy what costs were paid for it as well. Overload is an alternate cost. Although the copy effect might not copy the text-changing effect of overload, it does know that the overload cost was paid for the original spell and will therefore act as if its own overload cost was paid.
May 22, 2016 9:46 a.m.
@Epochalyptik: Well the answer was wrong, so I attempted to correct it after my own research. However, it turns out my correction was wrong as well.
I later asked MagicJudge on tumblr about this and it turns out that the replicate cost is equal to the non-overload cost and that replicated copies will be overloaded. This is because Djinn Illuminatus looks at the mana cost not the casting cost and mana cost is a property of the card and remains unchanged by your choice to pay alternate costs or not. Copies will be overloaded because, while copy effects do not see text-changing effects, they do copy any choices made for the spell, and thus will all apply their own text-changing effects to themselves.
Ruling: http://magicjudge.tumblr.com/post/144907900172/just-confirming-my-rules-reading-here-if-i-have
June 28, 2016 1:17 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
@weslyphon: That's exactly the answer that was given back in 2012. I'm not sure what the issue is.
Glen654 says... #1
According to the gatherer rulings, when you replicate a X cost spell copies the X, but you would have to pay the cost each time.
Since the Djinn lists the replicate cost equal to it's mana cost, I would think that you can pay the overload cost, and then you can copy that spell my paying it's mana cost.
So with Dynacharge , I think you could pay for it's overload, and then pay an additional R for each time you want to copy that spell, overloaded included.
Don't count on my word though, I could be wrong.
October 20, 2012 12:02 p.m.