DOUBLE STRIKE vs. GROUP BLOCK
Asked by avenged_arbiter 13 years ago
Guys, this is a dilemma for me coz i was fighting this guy at some mall and i had a 3/3 double strike creature attacking. he had his 2/2 and 2/2 (with first strike) group block me.
i know i get to kill the first creature but what happens next?
and in another scenario:i have a 3/3 creature with double strike and with trample.and the opponent group blocks me with his 2/2 and 2/2 (with first strike) creatures.
what's the damage?
Thanks! Really big help!
First you would choose how to deal your fist strike damage (double strike is first strike + regular combat damage by definition.) Than all creatures deal their first strike damage. Your 3/3 would kill one of the 2/2s, however it would die from the 2/2s combined first strike damage. Therefore, your 3/3 would die before he could deal regular combat damage, leaving one 2/2 with first strike on the battlefield.
May 10, 2011 12:10 a.m.
1st scenario: In the first round of combat damage, your creature gets to deal 3 damage to the creatures blocking it and each of your opponent's creatures with first strike gets to deal 2 damage to your creature. You assign 2 to one creature and 1 to the other,killing the first, and your opponent deals 4 damage to your creature, killing it. Since your creature is destroyed in the first round of combat damage, it doesn't deal any damage in the normal round of damage.
2nd scenario: Same deal as the first, since your creature doesn't deal enough damage to your opponent's creatures to destroy them he doesn't trample through for any damage.
May 10, 2011 12:50 a.m.
Oh, Magnor makes a good point, the situation is completely different if only one of the blockers has first strike.
Sit. 1: Your creature deals it's first strike damage along with the opponent's, leaving the 2/2 destroyed, the other 2/2 with 1 damage marked on it and your creature with 2 damage marked on it. Normal damage round comes, both your creature and the opponent's deal lethal damage to each other and are destroyed.
Sit. 2: As above, except your creature gets to trample through for 2 damage in the normal combat damage round.
May 10, 2011 1:16 a.m.
If only one of them has first strike then your creature wouldn't die.
May 10, 2011 1:22 a.m.
@sanixon94:
No, Siegfried is correct in both situations. If only one of them has first strike then your creature will be able to destroy both of their creatures, but ultimately both of their creatures will deal their 2 damage to your creature and it will be destroyed.
May 10, 2011 1:36 a.m.
@sanixon94:
No, Siegfried is correct in both situations. If only one of them has first strike then your creature will be able to destroy both of their creatures, but ultimately both of their creatures will deal their 2 damage to your creature and it will be destroyed.
May 10, 2011 1:37 a.m.
@sanixon94:
No, Siegfried is correct in both situations. If only one of them has first strike then your creature will be able to destroy both of their creatures, but ultimately both of their creatures will deal their 2 damage to your creature and it will be destroyed.
May 10, 2011 1:37 a.m.
MagnorCriol says... Accepted answer #9
Yeah, I asked for clarification for that reason - there's actually a significant difference here depending on whether or not both defenders have first strike, or only one.
Siegfried is correct in both of his explanations, though there's actually a tricky loophole that can be exploited that will let your 3/3 live!
So, when a creature becomes blocked, during the declare blockers step and before the combat damage step(s), you actually choose whats called the 'damage assignment order'. This little bit is easily overlooked since most of the time in the game, it's unimportant; it only matters in the case of gang-blocking that wont kill off all of the defenders.
For each attacking creature that's been blocked, its controller decides the damage assignment order, which basically says "I deal damage to this creature, then this creature, then this creature." Once you start assigning damage, you use that order to determine who gets damaged, and you can't assign damage to a creature unless the creature ahead of it has been assigned lethal damage.
So, here's the loophole: When first strike or double strike is involved, there's two separate combat damage steps, right? The 'strikers deal their damage, and then there's a second damage step for double strike's second damage and for everyone else.
When you're deciding your 3/3 double striker's DAO, choose the creature without first strike as your first target. Your double striker will assign its initial 2 damage to the creature without first strike and 1 to the creature with it, while the creature with first strike will deal its 2 damage to your 3/3.
SBAs are checked at the end of the first combat damage step, meaning the 2/2 without first strike is destroyed.
Then in the second combat damage step, the 2/2 with first strike no longer has damage do deal, so your 3/3 can safely kill it off without dying!
May 10, 2011 3:07 a.m.
MagnorCriol says... #10
Forgot mention the situation of the 3/3 doublestriker having trample -
If you line it up the way I describe above, not only will your 3/3 kill both creatures off, you'll even get to deal 2 damage to your opponent for your efforts. (2 damage to the vanilla, 1 damage to the first striker in the first combat damage step; 1 damage for lethal to the first striker, 2 damage trampling to the player in the second damage step.)
Killing two 2/2s, smacking your opponent for 2 damage, and living to tell the tale seems like a pretty good combat step to me.
One last note, I forgot relevant citations.
Damage assignment order:
509.2. Second, for each attacking creature that's become blocked, the active player announces that creature's damage assignment order, which consists of the creatures blocking it in an order of that player's choice. (During the combat damage step, an attacking creature can't assign combat damage to a creature that's blocking it unless each creature ahead of that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage.)First strike/double strike causing two separate combat damage steps:
510.5. If at least one attacking or blocking creature has first strike or double strike as the combat damage step begins, the only creatures that assign combat damage in that step are those with first strike or double strike.After that step, instead of proceeding to the end of combat step, the phase gets a second combat damage step. The only creatures that assign combat damage in that step are the remaining attackers and blockers that had neither first strike nor double strike as the first combat damage step began, as well as the remaining attackers and blockers that currently have double strike.After that step, the phase proceeds to the end of combat step.
May 10, 2011 3:20 a.m.
Jeez, sorry I did not realize I spammed the page with the same comment three times, my internet did not seem to acknowledge my pressing of the post button.
May 10, 2011 12:27 p.m.
exactly! thank you MagnorCriol cuz that's exactly what i was thinking
May 10, 2011 6:42 p.m.
MagnorCriol is correct the 3/3 would live if damage is dealt properly.
Frist Strike2 Damage to the 2/21 Damage to the 2/2 First Strike
Normal Combat1 Damage to the 2/2 First Strike2 Damage to the Player
The opponent could assign 2 damage on the 3/3 via the first strike 2/2 but during normal combat the 2/2 no first strike is dead therefor no damage.
MagnorCriol says... #1
Just a bit of clarification. Do you mean he blocks with two creatures, both of which are 2/2 with first strike; or do you mean he blocks with one 2/2 creature, and one 2/2 with first strike?
May 9, 2011 11:57 p.m.