can you purposely hold cards in your hand, so that you can play madness?
Asked by ilikeoldcardsbetter 13 years ago
I didn't play a land In order to have 8 cards in my hand at the clean up. then I madnessed out Arrogant Wurm .
BrightGreenLine says... #2
This is legal. You can fail to play cards whenever you want, unless there is an effect that says you must for any particular reason. The base rules for Magic don't say anything about players being forced to play anything.
July 14, 2011 9:52 p.m.
braccobaldi says... #4
Uhm, i'm not so sure it's possible, because the rules sayCLEANUP514.3. Normally, no player receives priority during the cleanup step, so no spells can be cast and no abilities can be activated. However, this rule is subject to the following exception:514.3a At this point, the game checks to see if any state-based actions would be performed and/or any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack (including those that trigger "at the beginning of the next cleanup step"). If so, those state-based actions are performed, then those triggered abilities are put on the stack, then the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass in succession, another cleanup step begins.
that is different to say (referred to end step)513. End Step513.1. First, all abilities that trigger "at the beginning of the end step" or "at the beginning of the next end step" go on the stack. (See rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities.")513.1a Previously, abilities that trigger at the beginning of the end step were printed with the trigger condition "at end of turn." Cards that were printed with that text have received errata in the Oracle card reference to say "at the beginning of the end step" or "at the beginning of the next end step."513.2. Second, the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities.513.3. If a permanent with an ability that triggers "at the beginning of the end step" enters the battlefield during this step, that ability won't trigger until the next turn's end step. Likewise, if a delayed triggered ability that triggers "at the beginning of the next end step" is created during this step, that ability won't trigger until the next turn's end step. In other words, the step doesn't "back up" so those abilities can go on the stack. This rule applies only to triggered abilities; it doesn't apply to continuous effects whose durations say "until end of turn" or "this turn." (See rule 514, "Cleanup Step.")
July 13, 2012 9:31 a.m.
braccobaldi says... #5
Sorry for the previous post, not so clear, i'll rewrite it:
I'm not so sure it's possible, because the rules say that
514.3. Normally, no player receives priority during the cleanup step, so no spells can be cast and no abilities can be activated. However, this rule is subject to the following exception:
514.3a At this point, the game checks to see if any state-based actions would be performed and/or any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack (including those that trigger "at the beginning of the next cleanup step"). If so, those state-based actions are performed, then those triggered abilities are put on the stack, then the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass in succession, another cleanup step begins.
while it's possible during end step to play spells
513.1. First, all abilities that trigger "at the beginning of the end step" or "at the beginning of the next end step" go on the stack. (See rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities.")
513.1a Previously, abilities that trigger at the beginning of the end step were printed with the trigger condition "at end of turn." Cards that were printed with that text have received errata in the Oracle card reference to say "at the beginning of the end step" or "at the beginning of the next end step."
513.2. Second, the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities.
513.3. If a permanent with an ability that triggers "at the beginning of the end step" enters the battlefield during this step, that ability won't trigger until the next turn's end step. Likewise, if a delayed triggered ability that triggers "at the beginning of the next end step" is created during this step, that ability won't trigger until the next turn's end step. In other words, the step doesn't "back up" so those abilities can go on the stack. This rule applies only to triggered abilities; it doesn't apply to continuous effects whose durations say "until end of turn" or "this turn." (See rule 514, "Cleanup Step.")
July 13, 2012 9:36 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
I'm not entirely sure what you're confused on. You've quoted quite a few rules, but I don't see anything in them that contradicts the answer to this question. Could you explain some more?
July 13, 2012 12:22 p.m.
braccobaldi says... #7
How can you see (rule 514.3), you can't play spells during cleanup step, the only exception is in the case that some state-based effects performs (but in this case the playable spells will be only instants), then once the stack is empty, you get again the priority: in this case you can cast spells as always.
For this reason is not sufficient to discard a card due to the maximum hand size of 7 for playing it for its madness cost imho
July 14, 2012 6:36 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
That is incorrect. The only reason one normally can't play spells at cleanup is because neither player receives priority. If something happens to give a player priority during the cleanup step (such as an ability triggering, aka madness), then you can cast spells.
Also note that if an effect instructs you to cast something (as madness does), you ignore the timing restrictions of that spell. Therefore, you can cast a sorcery during the cleanup step if you discarded it and cast it through its madness ability.
July 14, 2012 1:10 p.m.
braccobaldi says... #9
I'm not sure 'cause discarding do not use the stack, the succession of sub-steps are:
discarding: 514.1. First, if the active player's hand contains more cards than his or her maximum hand size (normally seven), he or she discards enough cards to reduce his or her hand size to that number. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.
remove damage from creature: 514.2. Second, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage marked on permanents (including phased-out permanents) is removed and all "until end of turn" and "this turn" effects end. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.
checking of triggered abilities: 514.3a At this point, the game checks to see if any state-based actions would be performed and/or any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack (including those that trigger "at the beginning of the next cleanup step"). If so, those state-based actions are performed, then those triggered abilities are put on the stack, then the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass, another cleanup step begins.
My doubt is: It is sufficient that the active player have to discard a card to trigger madness abilities or do you need something else (i.e. another ability) to trigger?
July 15, 2012 6:21 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
It does not matter that discarding during the cleanup step does not use the stack. Discarding a card with madness will cause the madness ability to trigger, thus causing players to receive priority during the cleanup step. Note rule 514.3a says exactly this.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #1
This is perfectly legal. There is no restriction on Arrogant Wurm which modifies how the card must have been discarded, so you can discard it during the cleanup step and cast it by paying its madness cost.
For reference, the comprehensive rules on madness:
702.33a Madness is a keyword that represents two abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the card with madness is in a players hand. The second is a triggered ability that functions when the first ability is applied. Madness [cost] means If a player would discard this card, that player discards it, but may exile it instead of putting it into his or her graveyard and When this card is exiled this way, its owner may cast it by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If that player doesnt, he or she puts this card into his or her graveyard.
July 14, 2011 9:52 p.m.