GUYS THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT
General forum
Posted on Nov. 19, 2011, 5 a.m. by Legendinc
at least to me
but i have heard that this current ongoing MtG Worlds San Francisco 2011.........iS THE LAST WORLDS EVER.
can anybody provide a source confirming or denying this rumor?
because if its true i'm going to be ****ing pissed.
Completely changing the format of Worlds into a 16 person invitational tournament is the same as ending Worlds as we know it. I don't think it's a stretch to define this as the last worlds ever.
November 19, 2011 1:20 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #5
But why should it matter to us? Has anyone here ever been to Worlds? I haven't, and had never planned to.
November 19, 2011 2:04 p.m.
Personally, I think they should give each tourney a rating 1-10, then if you win you get x points, then x-1 for second, and so on. Then the top 2 players from each country get to go to worlds.
Boom, insta-fix (for the rich AND good)
November 19, 2011 6:28 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
That's essentially what the points multiplier system does.
November 19, 2011 6:33 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #8
This really doesn't seem that bad to me.
I don't really see how terrible it is that the event that's supposed to determine the best magic player of the world for that year becomes essentially a "greatest players from the past year as determined by specific feats" match. Seems pretty logical to me, really.
Actually, scratch that. This way actually feels cool to me. I'm not terribly familiar with how it was done before because I;m not really involved with the competitive tournament scene, but this way has a sort of "the top representatives from all the land!" feel that we love to read in stories and watch on television.
What is so dramatically egregious here that this sparks the outrage I've seen around the intertubes?
November 19, 2011 7:35 p.m.
But to make play in qualifying tournaments all you need to do is play a lot of side matches. Maybe they should make it like 10-50 or something.
November 19, 2011 7:36 p.m.
Don't get me wrong, the new invitational sounds awesome, but why did they have to to get rid of old worlds? Old Worlds is/was arguably the most popular and prestigious organized play tournament of all time. It had over 15 years of tradition behind it. Was it my 'plan' to play in worlds? No, no one can really plan to be that lucky/successful. It was my dream, however, and the dream of many other semi-pro competitive players who wanted the opportunity to play on the nation's team.
From what I understand of the 'buzz' around the cancelling of worlds, is that people don't understand why WotC is taking away one of the best and most popular organized play events and at the SAME TIME are making record sales of their product. Many are worried that WotC doesn't see the value of competitive play, and that recent moves are a precursor to an unexciting, degenerate, irrelevant competitive magic scene.
If you aren't interested in competitive play then your interest in this 'story' may be minimal, but the competitive scene is the primary reason why cards hold value. When I open a pack of Innistrad, I have a reasonable expectation that the cards I open are worth some value. If you are also invested in the financial stability of your magic collection, then you should be interested in the future of competitive magic.
That's an overview, and a lot of personal bias. I'd be happy to link some other articles if you want to read more.
November 19, 2011 10:13 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #11
Yes, Worlds and the Pro Tour are being tightened up, but the number of GP events is being doubled. To me, that says Wizards is very interested in supporting competitive play, they're just recasting the "eliteness" of each tier. The augmented GP schedule should give "semi-pro" competitive players more overall opportunities to get points and live the dream, right?
November 19, 2011 10:25 p.m.
As I referred earlier, one of the fears people have for the future of organized play is that it will become 'degenerate'. The way Planeswalker Points are set up right now, (and I can say this with some confidence, considering that WotC has acknowledged it themselves), it encourages 'grinding' as many high level events as possible in each season. It is a system the rewards individuals that can afford to attend every GP, and every other relevant competitive event within each 'season' to rack up enough points to qualify. It doesn't necessarily reward individual performances, consistency, or 'skill'.
The GP series may give more 'semi-pro' players a chance to compete, but since most of these GP's will be held in the United States, and since a competitive player will need to attend nearly 100% of them during a season in order to qualify for the pro tour, it will make the cost of entry nearly infeasible for many skilled international players. Which really sucks, since now they can't really hope to attend worlds either.
We can have another discussion completely on Planeswalker Points, the Grand Prix series, and the shift in opportunity associated with them. It doesn't make cutting old worlds a good idea.
November 19, 2011 10:57 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #13
I didn't notice your earlier note about degeneracy (to be fair, it was not explained or elaborated, and was buried in a sentence about something else). I do agre, that's a valid concern, but at least it's rewarding people who keep up a high level of involvement in the game. The impression I got from players trying to make the grade was that the old system of qualifying by sitting on a rating and waiting for the next high K-value event to come around actually discouraged widespread involvement.
November 19, 2011 11:07 p.m.
Yeah, I'm trying to summarize a lot of information in a short area and trying to keep it on the 'worlds' topic, not the 'Planeswalker Points' topic.
There were certainly flaws with the old system, and I'm not saying the new system is a bad 'idea', though i think there is evidence that it creates some bad results and needs improving.
Even if the rating system was flawless I disagree with the ending of the Worlds tournament for all of the reasons I've already stated. It was a tournament full of tradition and one of the best aspects of the Pro-tour. I believe its existence helped the game of magic on every level and its absence equally hurts the game. I don't believe WotC had need to end Worlds and I don't believe the new tournament is a satisfactory replacement.
November 19, 2011 11:43 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #15
When you frame it that way, it's easier to see why the change should be seen as important to all of us as a whole. It's always sad to see a beloved tradition go away, especially if people still enjoyed it.
November 19, 2011 11:57 p.m.
I watched the worlds webcast yesterday like it was the damn superbowl...The only reason wizards is doing this screwed up points system is because they make more money off of people going to FNM regularly than people going to worlds. its messed up....
November 21, 2011 5 p.m.
How does wizards make money off fnm?. My fnm gives store credit and $1 towards a monthly drawing for a booster box.
November 21, 2011 7:37 p.m.
Because one. its all about buying their merchandise. cards dont take that much money to produce at all so a couple dollars here and there really doesnt hurt them.(if they sold them for what they spent on them theyd be a dollar at most, Not four.) Two, sub-par players can just grind fnm to get points and qualify for tourneys. the more fnms you go to. more money you spend. the more points you get. If youre a really good player and dont have the cash or time to go them you lose out on points. Unqualified players are going to be making it places they shouldnt be. but they dont care because Fnm is what makes them the most money, not grand prix, pro tour, or worlds.
November 24, 2011 4:14 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #19
"Unqualified players" is a bit of a charged term, and makes you sound condescending.
"Unqualified" is very relative. Is everyone who's going to be going to the higher tourneys on the skill level of the "pro" players? Probably not, though you can't assume that they aren't, either. Are they qualified for it? If they're getting into the tournaments, then by definition they're qualified for entry. The specific requirements for "qualified" have simply changed from what they were a year ago.
Besides. What makes the pro players good? Besides natural talent, practice. And what is grinding up points by going to every single event you can get to if not practice? That's a lot of Magic playing right there.
tl;dr Don't call people "unqualified". It makes you sound like a jerk, and I bet you're not one.
November 24, 2011 5:09 p.m.
whoah. i wasnt being condecending. you dont need to call the thunder down on me ok.
i just dont think a good player should be defined by his wallet. its already bad enough as it stands now. i just dont think its fair. its not very equal opportunity.
yes practice is key to becoming better. and im not the best player out there. id even call myself "unqualified" i just think that if a players good he or she should have just as good as a chance to get into a big event as someone who is a little more financially disadvantaged.
and "unqualified" isnt a condescending term. Its actually very accurate. because if someone isnt good enough to normally qualify for an event then they are "unqualified". Skills are skills. if you have them, you have them. if you dont, you dont. its not condescending its just the truth. so to say im putting myself above others is just rude.im not speaking for myself. im speaking for all of the amazing magic players that arent going to get a chance to compete this coming worlds
because when it all comes down to it who deserves to be at worlds or pro tour or any other big event? People who love playing magic and people who are good at it. Players who make it there are expecting a challenge and its only right to want the best players to represent the magic community in something so important to all of us.
and plus if none of us can admit that we have room for improvemnt how are we supposed to get any better?
November 25, 2011 2:43 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #21
I don't mean to sound like an ass, but please explain how a player who is not good and doesn't enjoy the game would beat out someone who is both of those things to qualify for Worlds or a Pro Tour. I can't see how someone who does not deserve it could realistically end up at such an event.
November 25, 2011 4:58 p.m.
I haven't read on the comments properly but I'm wanting to jump in here with my comments (or vent) regarding the recent changes. If you feel that my comments are insulting, then please take them with a pinch of salt :)
I live in Ireland, and as such Nationals was the event to which is the "big deal" to a lot of local players. You had qualifiers, and also the top X from Northern Ireland and Ireland who then went on to the National Event, to which the top 3 people in that tournement got the chance to go to the Worlds event. (First place basically got the money to fly there).
This was often seen as a great chance for 'dreamers' like me to go with a deck, and with a bit of work, research, and testing, you went prepared and thus had a good chance of making it. This year was my first year going to Nationals, (I ran with Mono Black Control) and I had a great time, even if I did end up falling at the third last hurdle.... I still walked away determined to come back to next years National championship stronger and better. Living the DREAM and the chance to go represent the country in Worlds!
Now that dream has turned to a scrappy mess due to the announcement of this Worlds event being turned into a 16 player affair.
Is this going to stop me playing Magic? NO!
Why Not?
Well, it's this simple really, Magic to me is a game to which I enjoy, it has a social element which I will always enjoy, and I want to continue to get better. Whilst Nationals will continue to go on, there is no dream to play for, and thus no "holiday" either. Which is a bad thing because Nationals doesn't have something going for it other than a trophy now. It does have a good thing though... It will hopefully encourage those who REALLY want to play to play, and those who are in search of a "holiday" can go off and actually earn money for that holiday instead! :)
Now what does this do for People like me?
I'm not a regular FNM person. So Plainswalker Points from a PWP system doesn't really appeal to me. In Belfast, the only shop that is officially recognised and can host FNM events is currently running draft (this month and last!), and thats only 3 rounds. So if you wanna run the logical theory behind this, that's 9 points a week you can potentially win. With other places running 4-5 round FNM's, this puts players in Belfast behind in the grinding race for this area. The only other way to stand a chance to earn points to events is to attend PTQ's and win, or "GRIND" in major events, which may seem to be a good thing, but if the events are doubled, thats a lot of travelling and searching for competative events to play for.....
(tbc)
November 25, 2011 6:06 p.m.
....The major thing that is somewhat annoying is the whole system doesn't play fairly. If I want to stand a chance of getting into events, I should fly out to America for a while and grind on the Star City Circuit. This requires 3 important things... Money I don't have, time to spend on travel and accommedation and a card pool to be able to adapt to the metagame by. Hell, I'd be willing to do this if I had these luxeries, just to be able to travel and meet people, but as it is, I'm gonna have to stay rooted to Belfast, and suffer because unless I manage to Qualify AND win a Pro Tour Event, there is no hope of making it to Worlds...
So in short, if you have the money, you can afford the time to travel to every event and do semi-well, you could potentially grind your way to the top of the PWP system, and earn that spot in the 16 player Worlds event. But if you are wanting to be that person you will epically fail unless you actually are winning in the other events!
November 25, 2011 6:06 p.m.
Because the new points system is screwy and players that would otherwise not make it to higher events will be making it to higher events (not necessarily worlds or anything ridiculous) because they play friday night magic regularly and acquire points.
November 26, 2011 3:33 a.m.
Thats where things get interesting...
Fnm grinding might be for nought others than the fnm tourney.
But The bigger issue is that everyone is in the dark atm.
November 26, 2011 5:39 a.m.
obviously this has gotten a little too convoluted. Everyone who is getting a hair in their butt about this just read this article.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/an-open-letter-regarding-planeswalker-points/
November 26, 2011 6:21 p.m.
sorry btw cardcoin for the random comment that made no sense in the middle of your vent. I was answering Rhadamanthus' question
But see this angst right here is exactly one of the things that bugs me about this new points thing.
as i said earlier
a player shouldnt be defined by their wallet :/
it isnt over, and people wont stop playing magic.(i know i wont) but wizards really fudged it on this one.
November 28, 2011 2:24 a.m.
My Venting may be from a personal prospective, but the major problem is that WotC have indeed tried to do the "Pull the table cloth and keep the plates as they were" trick whilst damaging a lot of plates.
There are local players some of which have already begun to sell their card pools, (which to me just screams "Stupid!") and i've got to say, the dealers are probably gonna be hurt by this mess as well. Dealers though have the casual market as well to cater for, and as such, they will still make their money from the secondary market, but not as much as most cards will now be sold for things like edh or legacy.
Still, it will be interesting to see what announcements will be made for the pro tour folks, if they feel the changes dick them over, there may be no longer a pro tour worth it's salt and will cause an avalanche of things that will cause a crash similar to the stock exchange lol :)
November 28, 2011 5:25 a.m.
My Venting may be from a personal prospective, but the major problem is that WotC have indeed tried to do the "Pull the table cloth and keep the plates as they were" trick whilst damaging a lot of plates.
There are local players some of which have already begun to sell their card pools, (which to me just screams "Stupid!") and i've got to say, the dealers are probably gonna be hurt by this mess as well. Dealers though have the casual market as well to cater for, and as such, they will still make their money from the secondary market, but not as much as most cards will now be sold for things like edh or legacy.
Still, it will be interesting to see what announcements will be made for the pro tour folks, if they feel the changes dick them over, there may be no longer a pro tour worth it's salt and will cause an avalanche of things that will cause a crash similar to the stock exchange lol :)
November 28, 2011 5:25 a.m.
Yeah this is definitely going to change a lot of things in the future of MTG. and not necessarily for the best either.
one of the other things that bothers me the most is that majority of the meager handful of 16 people that is soon to be worlds, will be in worlds the coming year automatically...
no longer a grand melee where the big guys could be unseated at any moment by a fresh new face.
The crash similar to the stock exchange, i like that lol.
I mean geez wizards. you already took DnD, bent it over and had your way with it. why MTG?
I guess well just see how it goes.
Rhadamanthus says... #2
Whoever told you that has an extremely backwards and incorrect understanding of the upcoming changes to Organized Play. This link is from the most official source you could possibly find.
Out of curiosity, why is it so important to you?
November 19, 2011 8:38 a.m.