Future plane is one single building?
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Jan. 18, 2022, 4:35 p.m. by legendofa
I feel like the original plane setting have been roughly getting more constrained with time. Amonkhet, and it sounds like New Capenna, take place in a single city, and Strixhaven takes place on a college campus. In these cases, (and I'm speculating about New Capenna) there isn't much description given to the world outside. For Amonkhet, there might as well not be a world outside.
Ixalan, Eldraine, and Kaldheim were decently big, but Kaldheim felt underdeveloped. I feel like the planes aren't being explored enough. The cynical part of my brain is wondering if a plane gets constricted so much that an entire Standard set takes place in a single building, like a prison, temple, skyscraper, or castle. While I'm not opposed to the idea by itself, it just seems like a waste of a plane if that's all we know about it.
Do people like the tight focus of the planes? Is it realistic to worry about a setting that's a single building on an otherwise undefined plane?
JANKYARD_DOG says... #3
My understanding of Amonket was that the world outside of the city is just endless desert. Though I'm not sure if that was according to Bolas or that it is indeed an completely desert world. To be fair though there is only so much room in a set, and using an entire world in one set doesn't leave much for future visits if they decide to explore different regions.
January 18, 2022 5:44 p.m.
To be fair, isn't Ravnica actually a city-world like Coruscant (from Star Wars) or Trantor (from Foundation)? I always thought that each guild's territory on Ravnica was essentially like it's own continent/nation, meaning very large. And ofc they use magic to teleport and fly back and forth so the world may "seem" smaller than ours....
Or is that just my own personal fanon?
As for other planes, I think JANKYARD_DOG hit the nail on the head. If they fully mapped out every plane for us each time we visit a new one, then returning to those planes would be less exciting, because we would already "know" about that whole plane already.
I will agree that it would be fun to see what's going on "on the other side" of some of these planes/planets though. Like for example, maybe on Amonkhet there's a series of older gods that are kept asleep by some secret, ancient civilization on the opposite side of the world, and Nicky B and his antics wakes them up. Or maybe we find out that there's another continent on Innistrad with a completely different societal structure, and therefore its own, unique and independent storyline. But these sets would still have all the cool stuff from those plane that we like, such as DFCs and gods, for example.
January 18, 2022 6:48 p.m.
I do wish wizards would slow down on new worlds and do more revisits of existing worlds. For crying out loud we went from every set is dominaria to not going back for like 10 years or something. It's ok to go back to existing places and expand on them. Like did strixhaven need to be on a new plane? Couldn't that have been the new tolaria?
January 18, 2022 6:59 p.m.
JANKYARD_DOG If all of Amonket is one giant empty desert except for the now-destroyed city of Naktamun, that's just as bad as if it didn't exist at all. There's nothing to explore, nothing to find, no reason to go back.
I guess it's not so much that the planes themselves are getting smaller, but that the functional, developed parts of planes planes are getting smaller. Ixalan and Arcavios (Strixhaven) have lots of hints that there's more out there, and I like that. With Eldraine and Amonkhet, we've seen pretty much all there is to see, barring another 1,000 year hop.
Gattison Yeah, Ravnica is one giant planewide city.
Planes we've seen multiple times now, like Innistrad, Ravnica, and Zendikar, are now basically completely mapped. I'm going to tie this back in to my favorite plane Alara, which right now is a blank slate--there's no word on what the current geography, culture, or philosophy is like, only that it's not the same as it was before.
January 18, 2022 10:57 p.m.
I guess my biggest complaint is that there hasn't been much middle ground between "Here's the entire world, compressed into one set" and "Here's a giant world, but you only get to see this tiny corner of it." I really licked the three-set blocks. It gave enough time for each plane to fully develop and have a story told. I mean, I have no idea what happened on Kaldheim for the storyline, and only very vaguely for Strixhaven. Maybe I'm just being too picky.
January 18, 2022 11:05 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #8
I'd prefer three-set blocks to return as well, but I can't imagine it really happening :(
January 19, 2022 12:43 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #9
Actually, if I recall, Amonkhet had beautiful cities across the endless desert, and Bolas destroyed all but the one we visited.
And as for Strixhaven, wasn't it five universities, not one? Lorehold, Witherbloom, Quandrix, ..... Uhhh... Prismari annnnd... Wait don't tell me... Silverquill?
I had to cheat and LOOK UP THE UNIVERSITY ALL ABOUT COMMUNICATION?? oh the irony
January 19, 2022 1:04 a.m. Edited.
I mean, crimson vow went down to mostly all at one party and I don't really mind it. If the premise is interesting, the end result will feel full, whether it be a world or a wedding.
January 19, 2022 8:02 a.m.
I think I care more about the execution than the size. Amonkhet was focused on the city, but I had a good feel for the mystery behind the setting and felt something seeing it destroyed in the next set. Strixhaven was about the college, and I felt like I could articulate what the colleges were about.
Where even though Kaldheim was apparently large, with the ten realms (they're realms, right?), the setting felt underdeveloped. I feel like I can articulate what makes the angel realm different from the... GW realm(?) less than I could Quandrix and Witherbloom. Like I get there's zombies and changelings and all, I just feel like I gleaned less about the setting from looking at the cards than I did for Strixhaven.
January 19, 2022 1:27 p.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor says... #12
Little late to the party here but I agree with SpammyV and Niko9. If it's a well executed story then I think you can get away with a narrow geographical/temporal setting. Amonkhet is a good example. The original story took place in the only remaining city on the plain. I felt the execution of the story was good, and even though the city was destroyed, they left a lot of wiggle room on future expansions. For example, they could do a whole story on Hazoret and Samut leading the survivors through the endless desert as they search for a new sanctuary, or they could focus on the survivors trying to revive the soul of the plane whom Nissa briefly connected with and thus heal the plane of it's undead curse.
Also, isn't there some undiscovered continent on Innistrad? I thought I read somewhere that there was actually another continent on the plane.
I think the primary issue leading to these newer planes feeling underdeveloped compared to the old ones is that we don't have multiple sets available to develop them. Dominaria had more than 10 sets of magic in which various stories and regions were explored. Innistrad, Ravnica, Mirrodin/New Phyrexia, and Zendikar have had lesser, but similar development. I'd love to see WotC slow down with the new planes and take more time to go back to other one-shot planes that have a lot of potential for exploration.
February 6, 2022 11:37 a.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor I could be misremembering this, but I recall Amonkhet being virtually empty except for demons, long-deserted (literally) ruins, and the city of Naktamun. With Naktamun gone, the only possible future I see for the plane is that any survivors either get hit with the Curse of Wandering or get eaten by desert demons or sandwurms. Maybe an oasis could support a camp for a while, but there aren't enough resources or population to do anything further with the plane without significant outside activity. I don't mean to be pessimistic, but I don't see any long-term development for Amonkhet other than starting a new story from scratch.
"It was theorized that other lands beyond the great seas harbored exotic species of lycanthropes, and it has been speculated that some werewolves of the known world have fled for those far regions." --Planeswalker's Guide to Innistrad, Part 2 https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/planeswalkers-guide-part-2-2012-04-18
And although some market data says people didn't like multi-block sets, everything is just too compressed now for my liking. There can, and will be, years between single-expansion sets from the same plane. That's not the right way to tell a story, in my opinion. I guess I care more about the settings than the main character planeswalkers.
February 6, 2022 1:49 p.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor says... #14
legendofa - That's where I saw that tidbit about other possible lands in Innistrad. Thanks
Idk, I think a Mad Max-Zombie apocalypse style of story on Amonkhet could be compelling if done right. Just focusing on them trying to survive. It would probably be bleak as hell, but would definitely be a new type of story for MTG. Plus I do think they left some future open within the story with Nissa's connection to the soul of the plane. Like trying to heal it or something.
But yeah, I agree that they need to spend more time developing the worlds that they visit.
As an aside, I am rather concerned about how they may treat Kaldheim in the future. Vorinclex infected it with phyrexian oil, and with the way the story appears to be building towards a phyrexian invasion of some sort in the multiverse, I could see them writing it off as a "lost to compleation" footnote.
February 6, 2022 2:56 p.m.
JANKYARD_DOG says... #15
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor: regarding Kaldeim, the whole 'Doomskar' thing where one Realm clashed with another seemed more akin to territorial battles than anything resembling a 'Ragnarok'. Could it be that the Phyrexian compleation threat is just that?.
I was/am all a fan for Phyrexians being the big baddie we'd see soon. I never expected it to be interplanar or that they would successfully compleat a planeswalker. My headcanon was Tez brings Portal for them and becomes their best friend... kinda skews things a bit I think. Gearing up for another 'Gatewatch' conflict probably. How many more walkers are to be compleated I wonder along the way, now that apparently that's a thing?
As for the new vs old arguement, if you ask Maro it is an equally divided topic amongst players. It was supposed to be new, old, new, old, etc... but it has seemed to jump around alot lately so who can say what the plan is really. I can see both sides though; yes, we should explore more of the existing worlds more frequently and other areas of said worlds, but new worlds also keep things fresh, explores/widens more of the multiverse, and adds more characters to the story. On that last note, sure it can feel a bit crowded as of late but I have a feeling they are going to start cycling out some of the older characters for some of the fresher faces. Just a hunch. Also on new planes, some of the worlds previewed in core sets and plane chase should take precedence over anything not heard of I think. Like Vryn, Regatha, Shandalar, just to name a few off the top.
The Mad Max/Amonket idea seems interesting enough... could still be a 'Bolas Loyalist' faction or something I suppose, and the survivors trying to reclaim the only city maybe with whatever they can salvage in their travels? Not sure about the Nissa part though, she seems tied to an arc involving Naheeri/Jace at the moment.
Sorry if I seem all over the place here, but did our latest trip to Innistrad not introduce a different breed of werewolf? Tovolar's band were described as alot bigger and badder than the average speciman in the story. Did they come from elsewhere or no? Always nice to have more though should we explore the new continent theory.
Afterthought: where's Ashiok in all this Phyrexian business. They seemed excited by the preview they got via Elspeth's dreams. This makes me think there will be a Walker for each praetor maybe? So far we got Tez/Tamiyo and Vorinclex/Jin... Was Tibalt in on it too or happy coincidence being a distraction and all?. Is any of this still on topic? Idk...
February 6, 2022 6:02 p.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor Actually, the Mad Max-survival story would be perfect for a one-shot return to Amonkhet. That's a good idea. Even so, Immortan Joe from Fury Road had substantial stores of water to hold people under his control. What kind of condition was the Luxa River in by the end of Hour of Devastation?
JANKYARD_DOG "new worlds also keep things fresh, [and] explores/widens more of the multiverse" This is the part I have a problem with. There are already too many half-developed planes, and making more won't help. If a plate of chocolate chip cookies is still half raw, adding underbaked ginger snaps doesn't solve anything. I 100% agree priority should be given to Planechase planes and core set previews. Although, Immersturm seems to be part of Kaldheim, not Valla, and Kharasha Foothills have been eclipsed by Tarkir and won't be making an appearance (thanks to an unintentionally problematic name for the plane, as I understand.) So even those aren't really safe.
Omniscience_is_life says... #2
I definitely prefer Zendikar-esque planes (Alara and Ixalan are two such examples) that show what life is like on every facet of the world--but I can see the appeal in mostly focusing in on one place (like a campus for STX) in order to set a scene for localized conflict, etc.
Also, are planes really getting smaller? Cuz like Ravnica's always been one city, P3K is well, three kingdoms, and Kaladesh (while only being 7 years old) only focuses on Ghirapur for the most part.
January 18, 2022 4:51 p.m.