The best card game system, but is it enough?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Oct. 26, 2023, 8:19 a.m. by Niko9
I've played around with a few other card games over the last little while, and the thing it made me realize about magic is that the core construction of the game is so good, well, actually it's one of the things that this all has made me realize. The color pie, the cost system, just the right amount of card types, the easy to pick up number values, it's all either something that's better or something that's copied by others, and I do think that the core of magic will always hold up, but what do you think? Is the system worth the other stuff?
Like, a good game of commander is still the best thing going, it just doesn't seem to happen to often. Keywords have definitely overloaded me and I can't remember what they all do, alternate arts and SL make me have to check everything to see what it is, and just the sheer amount of stuff gives me the feeling of, I have no idea how to play around what is coming next.
Maybe it's just me, I don't know, I just feel like the base game of magic is so good, it's just that there is so much stuff in commander now that the game feels like a tug of war with itself, creating a good playing field but a bad experience, and I really don't know if that can ever be undone besides just a social contract thing, which is also a little irking, because it's not somebody's fault if they want to play something I don't jive with. Maybe it's my fault, it probably is, I just don't know if that actually changes the issues for me.
I guess I just wondered if anyone was feeling that way with commander. The freedom of the format has always been the best part, I'm just struggling with what that means in an era where spoilers are ontop of spoilers and packs of Ixalan (my favorite set of all time) cost 3 times what they did the last time, so there will always be a ceiling for me that's, everything past this point simply isn't for you. Maybe it's just a question of, how playable is a game that's now made for not me? Still the best game at it's core, but honestly, I can jump into something else these days and feel like I have access to a complete game, where magic isn't like that anymore.
griffstick says... #3
You for me I felt like magic is the best game and cmdr is the best format for it. I love player a 4 player game or even 5 player or 3 player. It's sitting down with multiple people over a game of cmdr that does it for me. The one on one games are boring for me. They feel like a sprint when I want a marathon. The only good thing about 1v1 is that you don't ever feel bad about the way you play or the deck you use. I don't feel bad about conciding in 1v1 either. However 1v1 isn't for me. My problem with mtg and cmdr isn't anything except Universes Beyond, I can't find it in me to get interested in these cards that exist "outside the magic universe". I see these new card and the mechanics that are new and I don't read them I just look at the art and breeze over the card. I don't want to purchase there products either. And after phyrexia all will be one. I lost all interest in new stuff. In not keeping up. They have gone way off course in my opinion.
October 26, 2023 12:42 p.m.
Awesome info, thanks TypicalTimmy! I haven't checked out pokemon but it's a great suggestion. Mostly I tried Ygo and Flesh and Blood and on both it's like, magic is better at being a card game, but these are better card games. Or at least for me right now. I do like how pokemon everything feels in universe, and after so many cards, they all feel pokemon. YGO did a great job of that too, even with tons of cards, animes, archetypes and everything, when I play a game no matter what it's against it feels like we're both playing Ygo, not Dr Who versus Jace Versus Fallout vs the several powers of being tempted by the ring that I can never remember.
But yeah, I'm definitely feeling burnt out. I thought the new Ixalan would spark something because I love the setting, and I do like the set so far, but it's just surrounded by sets and SLs that I have no interest in.
Maybe the big thing is that I'm really struggling with the "only engage with sets you like" idea of magic now. It's like, yeah that works, but then when I play commander especially I engage with everything else too, and then I get stuck in this traffic lane where I'm moving too slow, and that makes it harder to engage with the things I do like.
Time for a new hobby might be the best suggestion : ) It's getting hard to imagine that magic will start caring about a player like me, an old school player who really loved the lore, the settings, and the game that is, at it's core a great system to play games with friends.
October 26, 2023 12:48 p.m.
griffstick Yep, I hear you on universes beyond. I would be very okay with just ignoring things I'm not interested in, that's just how things go, but then somebody is playing something I skipped, I don't know combos, interactions, keywords, threats, and it's like, now I have no idea how to strategize, and that kind of makes the game fall apart or me.
I do agree on 1v1 being a little fast too, but I do like when it's a friend and we both have a couple decks and we can play a bunch of games and throw different decks at each other. That's really hard to do in commander just because of how long games take, and I kind of love the, wait I'll bring in my X deck, then they'll bring in something new after that.
October 26, 2023 12:55 p.m.
I personally feel some tracking & cognitive overload. I also feel like the core system is great... but sometimes less-IS-more & that philosophy has not been in this card-game for awhile.
It doesn't help that my personal view of the game is divergent to alot of the target market. WUBRG + textwall + try-hard + cEDH + typal are all as popular & costly as possible & those cards are the anti-me. I will gold-fish play some of my own decks on here with some other user's decks & a majority of the popular decks run so far counter to my own taste (I figure it is ok to sneer at those when I am not face-to-face at the table :) )
Anyway, I feel a little fatigued with it all when the direction of the game keeps seeming to diverge from my own direction. That also means that while they are releasing a whole gaggle of new product @ exorbitant prices, I actually am seeing less viable product for me... meaning there is more for me to review, keep updated on, or roll my eyes about - all the while, seeing nothing of interest to me.
With the speed & power creep, not really mentioned above, that is another factor influencing this. I used to love brewing for the midgame, but now with the meta at-large you are almost guaranteed a loss if you brew for midgame. It is basically all becoming a game of fast-start/fast-mana & then your "wincons" (wincon also has had a changing definition over the years.. it is now more like; where is your win-now button in this deck?).
October 26, 2023 1:01 p.m.
FormOverFunction says... #7
I’ve been trying to figure this out for a few weeks now, and I’ll apologize for this weird ramble rant up front, but I’ve been enjoying my Wednesday commander nights as much as ever... because some aspect of my magic brain burned out and has just dismissed / stopped caring about almost everything that has been released over the past three years. I don’t feel like it’s a healthy way to handle it, and I’ve been watching to see if any of it bleeds into my interactions with people who play Dr Who / Stranger Things / etc cards (glad to say it hasn’t), but I’ve been playing the fifteen decks that I generally bring to the shop and just enjoying being there playing magic. I’m not sure when it happened, but I think it was during the LotR releases. It seems almost like riding in a cab, where you can watch out the front windshield and be terrified and furious, or you can just take a breath and be glad you’re not the one steering. I don’t pay particularly close attention to the new cards that get played, beyond maybe a quick “what does that do?”... in fact I’ve just been leaving my glasses in the car. The magic the gathering that I loved in the 90s is “gone” the same way all of the movies and music that I loved from the 90s are “gone.” Read: they’re (90% of the time) not being made any more. I’ve got cards I like (and music and movies, etc) that I will have access to for the rest of my life, and was lucky to have had a “read all the card lists” excitement period with magic. About every other set there will be a card or two that will fit in my Haunted House or Natural Disasters... but I won’t find out about it until one or two other sets will have come out. And that’s fine. It’s like I’ve hit this weird “Comfortable Old Widower” point in my magic life. She was the best wife I could have hoped for, better than I deserved, and the only one I’ll have.
October 26, 2023 7:46 p.m.
Gleeock I saw a video on cardmarket's youtube the other day that really blew my mind about power creep. In the tournament series of "best modern deck of all time" they played full power Hogaak versus the current scam deck (a deck with no banned cards if I'm not mistaken) and it wasn't even competitive for Hogaak. I'll admit that the opening hands weren't 100% perfect for Hogaak, but just seeing the deck that was a few years ago emergency banned get flattened was nuts : )
And yep, I hear you on more products that somehow appeal less. I mean, I might have skipped a set in the past that didn't really grab me, but I was in the mind set of, I like the game I just don't like this, rather than, I want to like the game and there's no space for me to do that.
October 26, 2023 7:52 p.m.
FormOverFunction Bwhaha : ) That made me both oddly optimistic and oddly pessimistic, but I'm really glad you are having fun. And that's a really good point that art will always exist, be it movies, music, even a game. Maybe I need to take a note from you and just play an old deck, watch Robin Williams Jumanji, and not worry about it when people sit down with their Dr Whos and Dwayne Johnsons : ) Either that or hit the Up stage after the "Comfortable Widower" stage.
October 26, 2023 8:23 p.m.
I've been "comfortable" for a while as well. It just can be somewhat difficult when what you were so fond of gets flattened because the game has less room for midrange play anymore :) I accept it, I have a few decks that sortof overcome it, but I do get that internal longing sigh when so many games are spent trying to overcome the instant up-the-ante quality of the game now... & I have become a more strategic player within my favorite playstyle niche, which still holds its' fun, it just gets exasperating if a high frequency of games you are pulling up to 3/4 of the table playing "address me now" commanders. All a popularity & perspective deal, groupslug style just gets very little mind-blowing love compared to other archetypes & therefore (being less pushed) is also less popular & less common. So who do you think will get countered or picked apart if your meta is 75% control all the time? How about when that same 3/4 of the table are always accomplishing their wins in the same way with similar objectives? Do they all want to win without worrying about life totals? & have these types of decks received alot of support lately? I guess I am saying; that the direction of the game has gone with printing strategy types & game-accelerating chase cards that I find "unfun" in a high volume now & just the proliferation of this impact the meta as a whole. It makes it hard to be upset with players, when they use what the designers are pushing, but it makes it so that I will run something less popular that runs against the grain of what the rest of the table wants to be doing. --> ever aggrodeck a mostly azorius/approach table? I don't articulate too well, or too succinctly, but these are the kinds of things that make me probably a dinosaur to the game now. But hey! they gave me Descent into Avernus so there is always that :)
Also, if you ever play any dice games, one of the best things you can do is say: "Jumanji" super intensely. I just did that with a crit... best thing ever.
October 26, 2023 9:32 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #12
You know, there is also always D&D / Warhammer 40k.
The cynic in me would say to avoid 5th edition. Yes, yes we all know it's "the most popular". Bleh, whatever 5th edition sucks. It is extremely limiting in options, forcing players to homebrew mechanically unbalanced nonsense.
- I don't know if this is true but I also heard recently that 5e is "retiring" next year and 6th Edition is in the making?
I am a strong and passionate fan of Pathfinder. Now, Pathfinder just released their 2nd Edition which is really cool but many people still play the original Pathfinder to this very day - which came out to compete with D&D's 3rd edition.
- Fun fact: What we call "3.5" was actually an attempt to compete AGAINST Pathfinder!
Anyway, if you think 5e has "an insane amount of resources", then Pathfinder will keep you awestruck for days. The SRD list that Paizo published is easily 10x the size of all of 5e combined.
Or, if you really enjoy battlefield management and tactics, Warhammer 40k is the way to go. Now I must confess that unfortunately I have never played Warhammer 40k on my own, however I had several friends deeply rooted in the game in high school and college, so yes I have played with the miniatures and tables and battlefields. While I may not be as keen on the lore as, say I am with The Elder Scrolls (My #1 favorite high fantasy setting!), I know enough to know who to point my blasters at, lol.
And I know enough to be annoyed that Ghazghkull, Prophet of the Waaagh! is an Orc and not an Ork.
BUT WHATEVER FINE I GUESS
October 27, 2023 12:50 a.m. Edited.
I never tried warhammer, it always seemed like such a huge thing to get into. Maybe I'm just seeing it wrong, I just felt very overwhelmed when looking at it. Crazy though that this ork machine gun guy can get attacked by Dustin, Gadget Genius Also, maybe it's just me, but I kind of remember when people had issues with Alaborn Zealot and the portal 2 cards featuring guns because it broke the logic of the universe. Ha, it was a simpler time maybe : )
And DnD is always fun, hard to find groups sometimes but it might be a good go to from here. I could maybe even DM again : ) When I was writing books I didn't have the mental space for it, but maybe now. Thanks! I might start thinking if I can come up with something.
October 27, 2023 8:01 a.m.
I wrote up a solid campaign recently, I got a new group that can only get together QUITE infrequently... but that works with the adulting. Actually, a long hiatus from the game is just what the Dr. ordered.
I totally agree on the whole 5th ed. thing though. I was a 3.5 guy & I still swear by it, though I use 5th due to the materials for it being supplied by one person. Can you imagine my chagrin when I saw how many sensible things were taken out of the game? Like you have no athletics or swimming penalties to wearing full plate? Seriously! you ever try to run 5 with a 35 lbs backpack on? or even swim in sweats? It is ridiculous because even in 3.5 they knew this stuff & so the Barbarian (with those general skills & saving throws) felt so much more distinctly different from the warrior instead of just lumped together as a "martial" class or (to make me sneer) use video game terms like: martial tank, aggro/frontline. I HATE 5th ed tendency to make everyone think in videogame tropes instead of trying to make an organically developed character. I think (for the money) they should have thought of a software code to come with the player's manual by now, so that those things that matter can be laid into a tracker app for the GM to use, so a program that streamlines things that take a ton of writing like: (world travel, rations, fatigue, weather). I thought back in high school that you could have a custom mapmaker deal where you just clicked on your location & encounters & travel would just be generated right there for the DM.
..Anyway, my current character is freak'n amazing. A half-orc zealot-barbarian, large of belly & arm, named Laszlo Bulent. He is Hungarian based. I use terms that the rest of the party doesn't understand (undead are: Pindle/Pindlefvolken). He crossed "Gehennom's Quim" at the coming of manhood with a 40lb wheel of cheese across his back. Gehennom's Quim is basically Field of the Dead & his people have always been nomadic caravanners who sometimes use mastodon as beasts of burden, mostly because the undead don't sleep, so you have to be a nomadic people with constant pindle-hordes about. The people of the steppes do not actually know what "half-orcs" are even though they are half-orcs due to the fact that everyone on the steppes are somewhat olive-hued from thousands of years of crossover breeding with the greenskins. Every 17 blood-moons the civilized clerics of the West work with the barbarian zealots of the gods of strength for the "Great Screwing" Laszlo always pelvic-thrusts while saying this Basically there is a sort of holy war going on at the Field of the Dead.
October 27, 2023 1:02 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #15
I feel like the people ragging on 5e are missing the point of 5e. The entire design philosophy was to make D&D more accessible. Instead of having multiple modifiers and having to calculate them all you just have rolls modified by stat mods. Is something making the check exceptionally harder/easier than it would otherwise be? Roll 2 dice and take the lower/higher. This has in turn led to a massive uptick in popularity of TTRPGs because people can understand them better.
There is also no one making players create mechanically unbalanced homebrew. There are many books written and tested for 5e. There are also many good homebrews. But just like with any community created content for games, most people have no idea what they are doing and create garbage.
Disparaging the system is gatekeeping. If you want a complex or realistic system use one of many, many other systems that are available. The same people who would always have played those more complex systems are still out there.
October 27, 2023 9:11 p.m.
I'm going to be the heretic here and say I actually like D&D 4e. It's definitely not "traditional" D&D, and it does lean a little too heavily into a "squad combat video game" play style--even most of the utility powers have an obvious combat application. If you think of it as D&D Combat Tactics: The Game, though, it's actually a pretty solid system.
The classes are the most balanced against each other of any D&D system. Some people say they're too balanced and are basically clones of each other, but I've never felt that to be the case. It's very easy to make a mechanically distinct and unique character. Each of the roles is well-defined, and there's never really a "bad" choice. Because of that, it might not be the most worthwhile system for optimizers, but if you want to try something unique and developed without being overshadowed by whatever hexblade sorcadin powerclass someone looked up online, it's the D&D system for you. (I don't have a problem with pure optimizing as a whole, but it's not my main focus, and I've dealt with some obnoxious powergamers, the kind who give everyone a bad name.)
If nothing else, it has by far the most DM-friendly and intuitive encounter building system for combat, social, and exploration. All three facets are supported without being hand-hold-y, and there's plenty of room for development and customization.
Outside of D&D, I've been trying a lot of smaller game systems. The LGS I go to has a monthly RPG one-shot program, where anyone can run any game they like, as long as it's not D&D or Pathfinder. I've tried a lot of games I never would have heard of this way, liked most of them, loved a couple, and always had fun.
Point being, there's a big world out there, and there's going to be a game in it for you.
October 28, 2023 12:19 a.m.
Vessiliana says... #17
Am I the only one who likes AD&D, 2e?
Of course, my favorite of all is classic World of Darkness, the kind they call "legacy" now.
October 28, 2023 3:26 a.m.
I have super fond memories of 2e. I don't know if it would hold up if I played again, but I remember it being amazing : )
October 28, 2023 6:55 a.m.
Vessiliana no, you are not the only one :)
WoD/White Wolf games still are my favorite, saga-based experience & "social combat" was always intriguing to me. Always a super interesting thing that in the world of guns you wanted more coincidental & social powers... because if you are surrounded by 4 hoods with pistols you were pretty much done for, but you could do such incredible horror movie things with just a little bit of coincidental power use. Though the game naturally flowed in a much more organic way... talk about some cognitive load for the GM.
Honestly, having played all DnD iterations from my uncles' old black & white on up to 5e.. I don't really see the accessibility issue perk. If anything, there feels like there is more cognitive loading in 5e because if feels like a more incomplete game. Not to say that the things that you feel need "systems" cannot be grabbed from 3.5e. That feels like a nice compromise when I feel that things are too cheezy & not fleshed out enough... for eg. we are all fighting on a boat & several NPC & PC fail a check when the boat capsized, it is ridiculous that the plate armor guys are just using their athletics without penalty, so I just look back at 3.5e with the -2/10lbs equipment (that made sense) apply that & either you are rolling to speed-doff your armor or you are drowning :)
October 28, 2023 11:09 a.m.
Gleeock Your barbarian character sounds really fun! I do love when a fighter can bring excitement, whether it's combat actions, backstory, unique skills, or a combination of everything : ) I'm a rogue for life, but if I had to do it again, maybe a fun barbarian.
October 28, 2023 9:27 p.m.
And yep, Jeweled Lotus is crazy. I haven't run into it in the wild just because of price probably, which may be the worst game balancing ever : ) but in watching cEDH it's just so crazy with partner commanders. I'm just going to continue to believe it doesn't exist until it destroys me.
October 28, 2023 9:38 p.m.
It is the kind of chase-glassjaw early commander garbage that has turned me off. You have a 4-drop+ commander? 32 lands & all fast mana? Ok, so you race to get your 4-drop out on turn 2 & either everyone is left in the dust or you get disrupted & possibly concede because it is a total glassjaw concept.. Either way that gameplay model seems like a bummer to me but I see more of it than I care to.
I just play barbarians very well to make them beloved party-members. For whatever reason I can really roleplay ignorance - a core concept to Laszlo's world. At one point he thought he was a brother elf to our elven party member because, as a zealot, he feels that he can live forever & therefore he must be an elf too. Sortof the same sense of logic as the whole: "witch science" bit from Monty Python & the Holy Grail.
October 28, 2023 10:32 p.m.
Also, he has like 30 brothers all named Laszlo, or sisters named Laszlana. That way if this Laszlo dies, & our party cannot resurrect, I can seamlessly pull off a LOtR & just be like: I'm Laszlo The White!
October 28, 2023 10:35 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #25
I don't understand how less stuff to keep track of would cause a higher cognitive load. Again, if you feel the need to track the weight of everything you are carrying and your armor so that you can have a more "realistic" magical fantasy game then play a system with those rules. The removal of those rules was intended to, and did, make the game more accessible to people who want to make up stories with their friends instead of playing spreadsheet simulator. I'm all for a spreadsheet simulator, but it is undeniable that 5e is more accessible than 4e, 3.5, 3e, or AD&D. One needs only look at the popularity of D&D since the release of 5e.
To address the whole "plate armor guys get to swim without penalty", the DM can impose a penalty on them. The easy to understand penalty that 5e uses for everything to signify that something is significantly harder than it otherwise would be... disadvantage.
There is a single easily understandable penalty for everything requiring a penalty. There is a single easily understandable bonus for everything requiring a bonus. Does this mean that the characters in 5e are a bit more "anime protagonist" than characters in older editions? Yes. Is that necessarily a bad thing? No. 5e uses advantage/disadvantage for everything. There is significantly LESS cognitive loading because you learn a single system that applies to all scenarios instead of having to track different systems for every different situation.
The DC doesn't even have to be the same for each character. If the DM wants they make it a medium (DC15) check for people wearing light armor (average weight 10.3 lbs), hard (DC20) check for people wearing medium armor (average weight 27.4 lbs), and very hard (DC25) check for people wearing heavy armor (average weight 55 lbs). This actually maps pretty well to the -2/10lbs but is SIMPLER.
October 30, 2023 6:57 p.m.
I do think that players in DnD tend to fall into either, playing the game, or playing the character, so I can see where a simplified system can be great for some and less engaging to others. Luckily, most anything can be solved with the magic of a good DM : ) Though I do find it a lot easier if these details are in the game and you can say, hey don't worry about equipment weights so much, rather than trying to implement something.
October 30, 2023 8:03 p.m.
Yeah, it can just feel a little hokey when it is; "hey DM what do you think about this?" instead of; "well here it is, all laid out". It feels incomplete to me, that is all. If I wanted a universal modifier system that works very nicely for "one-size-fits-all" systems then it would be the aforementioned World of Darkness d10 system, that one is very strong in that regard.
If you are a real old-timer you could play the ancient LoTR d100 system game for a real good time... With the most hilarious critical failures of our time
October 30, 2023 11:12 p.m.
My favorite is the Pyromancer's critical failure of "it burns! oh master of fire!!" As you immolate yourself.
October 30, 2023 11:18 p.m.
golgarigirl says... #29
A few mentioned being burned out by the concept of 'only engaging in product you like' and the Universes Beyond. I am still slowly coming to terms with Dr. Who and LOTR sliding up alongside my Magic at the table. I am not engaging myself...but I honestly kind of glaze over when they sit down at a table with me. Does anyone else do that? Someone plays a Samwise Gamgee or The Tenth Doctor and my brain does not register them as anything relevant to me until they interact with my things or a name I recognize in a meaningful way. Like, until The Tenth Doctor put three time counters on As Foretold I really could not care that he was present at all until he did that. I know the player read off his abilities when she cast him...I asked because I was unfamiliar with that entire commander set...but I kind of brushed it off for no reason I could discern. I don't think the neighboring players were doing anything more threatening at that point, but it just didn't matter. It was not part of my gameplay experience at that point. Magic is actively making me fatigued and apathetic about games I'm actively playing by adding all these extras and in realizing this I'm a little distressed about that?
TypicalTimmy says... #2
If you like the balancing aspect of MTG, but are being burnt out over the idea of managing a battlefield without feeling like you have had a bad experience, I would strongly suggest you look into the Pokemon TCG.
Pokemon TCG is actually pretty nicely balanced in terms of Resistance and Weakness, as well as having to do resource management for their Retreat costs. While online competitive Pokemon games have far more types and the ability to "hold" items, the TCG isn't there yet and likely never will be. I say this confidently because if the intention was to fold the videogame aspects into the TCG, then Game Freak would have done this already. Given that I was actively playing their Pokemon TCG just about a year ago, I can assure you this is not yet the case.
Pokemon TCG is also inexpensive. You can buy and build a strong deck for a fraction of even a non-competitive EDH deck. Unfortunately if you walk into the game thinking like an MTG player, that could ultimately be your downfall. Most Pokemon TCG players merely cobble together a deck based on what they have and do not hone their deck around a central theme or idea. This is because what sounds like a flawless design in theory can turn out completely impractical in person. Imagine building a rock-solid Fighter / Fire based deck, only to sit down against an opponent who is using primarily Psychic. Not only will your Fighters be at high risk as many have a weakness to Psychic, it is common to see Psychic ONLY weak to Psychic, and many have Resistances as well. Meaning your "flawless" deck literally can't do a single thing.
So if you build to perfection, you'll sorely be let down. Or, you'll trample over everything at the table and give bad vibes toward other players. So the best thing you can do is maybe prepare one or two solidly constructed decks that really shine, and cobble the rest together with whatever you've got.
And yes, there are plenty of players for Pokemon TCG, with having sold 52.9 BILLION cards since March, 2023. Nothing compared to MTG, but it shows you the base is out there.
The only one true "downside" is that online resources are scarce. There isn't really a "Tappedout" for Pokemon. Sites do exist and are either Lavender Towns, have been abandoned so they do not contained updated card lists, or are clunky in design. And I have had horrible times buying cards online because there are so many different versions of, say, Onyx that what you buy may not be what you get.
I literally had one vendor email me saying they didn't have my exact card in stock so they sent me what they felt was "close enough". After several exchanges, I blew up at the vendor and demanded my money back because they basically created a false transaction by accepting my money and not sending me what I ordered.
The vendor blocked me.
So, take it with a grain of salt.
But it sounds to me like you might be burnt out of Magic: The Gathering. So maybe it's time to find a new hobby, instead.
October 26, 2023 10:40 a.m.