Will a Pack Rat token made by a rat brought back by a Whip of Erebos have haste?
Asked by chrizzilla 9 years ago
I got into a somewhat heated debate with a player at FNM tonight that the judge was not able to answer regarding this. I argue that the Pack Rat , having been brought back by the whip, which says that the creature GAINS HASTE, will generate tokens that also have haste. This would be akin to a Progenitor Mimic being blinked and re-entering, targeting a token generated by the mimic previously, which would now have two instances of the ability it gives to the token, thus creating two tokens each upkeep. Another example would be using a token generator such as Twinflame to make a copy of a creature (twinflame gives the TOKEN haste), then creating a copy of the token (using something like Wake the Reflections ), thus creating a token which has haste but won't go away at end of turn.
I argued based on the gatherer ruling of the progenitor mimic:
4/15/2013 If you choose to have Progenitor Mimic enter the battlefield as a copy of a creature, the triggered ability it gains will become part of its copiable values. For example, suppose Progenitor Mimic enters the battlefield as a copy of Runeclaw Bear, a 2/2 green Bear creature with mana cost 1G. The resulting object is a 2/2 green Bear creature named Runeclaw Bear with mana cost 1G and with "At the beginning of your upkeep, if this creature isn't a token, put a token onto the battlefield that's a copy of this creature." If another Progenitor Mimic enters the battlefield as a copy of that creature, it will be a Runeclaw Bear with two instances of the triggered ability.
And he argued based on the ruling for pack rat:
10/1/2012 The token won't copy counters on Pack Rat, nor will it copy other effects that have changed Pack Rat's power, toughness, types, color, or so on. Normally, this means the token will simply be a Pack Rat. But if any copy effects have affected that Pack Rat, they're taken into account.
And the rule 706.2:
When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object's characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by "as . . . enters the battlefield" and "as . . . is turned face up" abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.
Arguing that since haste is not printed on pack rat, the token won't have it.
Who is correct?
chrizzilla says... #2
Uhh, but the wording is not "that creature has haste" like the "creatures you control have lifelink" part. It specifically says that the creature GAINS haste.
June 14, 2014 4:10 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #4
The tokens don't have haste. As per rule 706.2 copyable characteristics must meet one of 5 criteria:
- Printed text
- Modified by other copy effects
- Modified by ETB effects
- Modified by triggered effects for being turned face up
- Modified by abilities causing the object to be face down.
in the Progenitor Mimic example there are 2 copies of the ability because the ability is a copyable characteristic since it is "modified by other copy effects." Whip of Erebos is none of those 5 things so it falls under "other effects" which are not copied.
June 14, 2014 4:17 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #5
damn markdown syntax lets redo the list:
Printed text
Modified by other copy effects
Modified by ETB effects
Modified by triggered effects for being turned face up
Modified by abilities causing the object to be face down.
June 14, 2014 4:20 a.m.
chrizzilla says... #6
I don't see how it's not part of the first criteria though. The creature GAINS the ability, which means that it should act as though the ability is printed on the card, in the same way that progenitor mimic says it GAINS the ability, and thus can be copied.
June 14, 2014 4:45 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #7
I'm not sure how you don't see that text that isn't printed on the card isn't part of the text printed on the card.
Again the Progenitor Mimic
scenario isn't a copyable characteristic because of the word gains, it is a copyable characteristic because it meets the second criteria of being granted by another copy effect. Since it isn't printed on the card or modified by one of the 4 types of effects specified to be copyable characteristics it falls under "other effects" that are clearly stated to not be copyable.
I'm sorry that this isn't the answer you wanted but it is the way the rules work.
June 14, 2014 5:09 a.m.
chrizzilla says... #8
Then can you explain why the gatherer website for Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker says that the haste it hives to the token is a copyable ability? Is it because have and gain work differently? if that's the case then the token that pack rat makes will have lifelink indefinitely because the pack rat it copied "has" lifelink (i.e. if the whip is destroyed).
June 14, 2014 5:16 a.m.
chrizzilla says... #9
And furthermore, it's not that I don't see that the text isn't printed on the card, it's that the word "gains" implies that the word is added to the rules text of the card as it exists, and therefore becomes part of the rules text of the card, in the same way that twinflame adds haste to the copy of the card or that progenitor mimic adds its ability to the copy of the card.
June 14, 2014 5:43 a.m.
chrizzilla says... #10
I just don't understand why it WOULDN'T work that way...
June 14, 2014 6:05 a.m.
megawurmple says... #11
As has been explained before, Whip granting haste is not a copyable characteristic, much in the same way as +1/+1 counters or temporary buffs aren't. The reason Kiki-Jiki tokens have haste as a copyable characteristic is because they are modified by another copy effect, in this case Kiki-Jiki's activated ability.
June 14, 2014 6:10 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #12
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
, Twinflame
, and Progenitor Mimic
are all copy effects. Any characteristic granted by them is a copyable characteristic because of the second criteria of what is copyable.
Lifelink is granted by Whip of Erebos
' static ability so it isn't copyable. Haste granted by whip's activated ability isn't copyable. Using the word "gains" doesn't add it to the printed text of the card, it creates a continuous effect granting that ability to the specified permanent. The only time it is copyable is when it meets the clearly defined criteria of what is copyable.
June 14, 2014 6:53 a.m.
billpasdmf says... #13
@chrizzilla: The difference lies in the language. With Whip of Erebos , the word "gains" necessitates that the token has entered the battlefield and then is granted haste. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker says that the token "has" haste, meaning that it is an intrinsic part of the token, thus making it a copyable effect. Whip of Erebos doesn't work like that because the haste ability is granted shortly after it entering the battlefield.
I know that this might seem like pointless semantics, but w/ Magic, it really does come down to the words, and one seemingly negligible change can completely alter how an effect functions.
June 14, 2014 10:12 a.m.
chrizzilla says... #14
Well, at this point I get that it doesn't work like that, but I still don't think it makes sense. How can something gain an ability but not actually have the ability? And why does the wording work when it's a "copy effect" but not when it is a normal effect?
To me it sounds like this: I create a text document. This text document is blank normally. The text document then "gains" a word (I type something in). I copy the text document and paste it somewhere. The copied text document now "has" the same word as the original in it, even though the text document normally doesn't have the word.
That probably sounds like a silly example but that's how I see it working. the wording is not clear on the matter (to me)...
June 14, 2014 12:11 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #15
Using the same sort of analogy although using a bit older technology : you have a hard copy document. You have an intern make a copy of it. They being an intern make the copy but don't copy any addendums.
Copy effects are like someone in making a previous copy made changes to the original, they get copied. Counters, auras, and continuous effects are addendums, they are in effect on the original document but because your intern is inept they are not a part of the copy.
Hope that helps.
June 14, 2014 1:22 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #16
@billpasdmf: That's incorrect, and it confuses the situation.
TitansFTW and Gidgetimer are correct.
It's not that the cards don't have the abilities - they do. It's that copy effects in Magic are very specific.
Copy effects in Magic copy two categories of information:
- Text physically printed on the original object
- Text added to the object by a copy effect
Whip of Erebos 's ability is not a copy effect. Therefore, the haste granted to the resurrected creature is not copiable.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker 's ability is a copy effect. Therefore, the haste granted to the copied creature is copiable.
To use your word document example, think of it like this:
You have a word document named "Pack Rat" with all the text of Pack Rat written in it.
You type "haste" into the document, but don't save it. This is what happens when you add an ability via a non-copy effect like Whip of Erebos 's.
Then, you copy the word document and name the copy "Pack Rat token with haste." The copied document will not have any of the text not saved in the original document, but it will include text added by the copy effect.
June 14, 2014 1:25 p.m.
chrizzilla says... #17
I don't know why, but that example is clearer to me than the rulings and rules stuff... thank you.
FALLEN-X-ANGEL says... #1
Your opponent was correct. This reason is because Whip of Erebos enables Pack Rat to have haste. I believe you should get a new judge if this judge was unable to answer this question. The tokens produced by Pack Rat don't have haste just because Whip of Erebos 's ability gives Pack Rat haste. Whip of Erebos 's ability only applies to Pack Rat not the tokens that are created by it.
June 14, 2014 4:01 a.m.