what is the reach of intervening if clause?

Asked by koylucumert 1 year ago

so, this will be a long one I know the intended effect of Obscura Ascendancy is that if you cast a spell that isnt of the right cmc, you get nothing. however, the wording is interesting to me. it says "Whenever you cast a spell, if its mana value is equal to 1 plus the number of soul counters on Obscura Ascendancy, put a soul counter on Obscura Ascendancy, then create a 2/2 white Spirit creature token with flying.". this sounds like the if clause is tied to the counter generation, but not to the token creation.

Whenever you cast a spell, (if its mana value is equal to 1 plus the number of soul counters on Obscura Ascendancy, put a soul counter on Obscura Ascendancy), then create a 2/2 white Spirit creature token with flying.

to demonstrate my point, if someone told you " when you go to the grocery store, if there is a discount in milk buy some milk, then buy some oranges", you would still buy oranges if there is no discount on milk.

and additionally, if they didnt mean it to sound this way, why didnt they just write : Whenever you cast a spell, if its mana value is equal to 1 plus the number of soul counters on Obscura Ascendancy, put a soul counter on Obscura Ascendancy AND create a 2/2 white Spirit creature token with flying.

so while the card is probably ment the other way, I think the wording suggests that you create a token after each spell, regardless of the counter count. but Im not sure so if anyone knows the explanation, Id really appreciate it

le-stan says... Accepted answer #1

Hi,

I think all of it is in punctuation. It says IF condition, then effect1, then effect2. So I think we can assume that the condition has to be met for any of the effects to trigger.

It would have been quite different to have a point instead of a coma (and maybe even a line break):

{IF condition, then effect1. Then effect2.}

or

{IF condition, then effect1.

Then effect2.}

That would have separated the 2 parts and put the effect2 "outside" of the condition...

I don't know if I make myself clear... And I'm not even sure I'm right here... but it's the way I understand it.

Stan

May 10, 2022 8:45 a.m.

Max_Hammer says... #2

I would assume it means the latter, if only because it would be pretty broken to pay three mana for this enchantment and get a 2/2 flying spirit (eventually turning them all into 5/5's) for each spell you cast.

May 10, 2022 12:47 p.m.

Guerric says... #3

I don't know if it would be broken if intended the other way, but the "if" clause applies to both halves here, and is an "intervening" if clause that is checked both before the ability resolves and after it resolves to avoid any shenanigans (see ruling below). If the "if" doesn't apply, we don't get either effect. Usually when the opposite is intended a new sentence begins to separate the events, but they are two steps in resolving the trigger, and the "then" is sequential.

"Obscura Ascendancy’s triggered ability has an “intervening ‘if’” clause. This means that it checks the number of counters both when the ability triggers and when it resolves. Notably, this means that casting two instants in a row with mana value 1 will never cause a player to create two tokens or put two counters on Obscura Ascendancy." 4/29/2022 Ruling

May 10, 2022 3:05 p.m.

Delphen7 says... #4

Guerric That begs the question for me, what happens if the spell somehow changes cmc while on the stack? Does the intervening if cause the ability to stop?

May 10, 2022 11:12 p.m.

legendofa says... #5

To clarify the wording a little bit, the "then" isn't the result of an if-then clause. It's a first-then clause.

If this spell casting thing happens, first put a counter on the card, and then create a token.

Once again, the precision of Magic-ese compared to English makes a difference. Magic-ese doesn't put the "then" at the start of the second part of an if-then conditional statement.

Delphen7 A spell can't change CMC, or mana value for the new term. It's the sum of all colored/colorless symbols and generic mana cost as printed in the top right corner. As an example, Academy Drake has a MV of 3, whether or not it was kicked. Additional costs, reductions, alternate payments, and whatever else do not affect converted mana cost/mana value.

May 11, 2022 1:29 a.m.

Gidgetimer says... #6

To answer the question in the title and maybe provide some illumination on how the wording of intervening "if" clauses work:

The "reach" of the intervening "if" clause is back to the beginning of the ability it is in. It is a modifier on the trigger, not on the effect. So the entire ability only triggers if the MV of a cast spell equals one plus the number of counters. It is a little bit of awkward/ambiguous wording in normal English, but is well defined in the rules and allows for standardized templating of triggered abilities to be "At/When/Whenever [TRIGGER], [EFFECT]." In this case [TRIGGER] is "you cast a spell, if its mana value is equal to 1 plus the number of soul counters on Obscura Ascendancy".

To rearrange your store example to fit with standardized MtG trigger wording it would be "When milk is on sale, if you go to the grocery store, pick up some milk and then some oranges."

May 11, 2022 2:43 a.m.

Gidgetimer says... #7

Also, a small correction to what legendofa said. Spells with variables in their mana cost do "change" MV because while on the stack the variable is treated as the declared value. In all other zones it is treated as zero. However, the point was that MV can not change while on the stack, and in that they are right.

May 11, 2022 2:46 a.m.

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