What is the point of indirect phasing?
Asked by Yesterday 4 years ago
702.25f When a permanent phases out, any Auras, Equipment, or Fortifications attached to that permanent phase out at the same time. This alternate way of phasing out is known as phasing out “indirectly.” An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won’t phase in by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanent it’s attached to.
702.25g If an object would simultaneously phase out directly and indirectly, it just phases out indirectly.
The rules also specifically mention that an Aura or Equipment or Fortification that directly phases out will phase back in attached to what it was originally attached to, if that object is still on the battlefield. So I'm not sure what the purpose of this specific distinction is. Is it required because of the case that; if a creature would phase in at the same time as an attached Equipment would phase in, and both of those permanents had directly phased out, the Equipment is unable to phase in attached to the creature?
I'll make an example here. An Equipment (let's say Sword of Sinew and Steel , though it's not relevant) is attached to a Crystal Golem , and a Reality Ripple resolves targeting the Sword and causing it to directly phase out. And the end of that turn, the Crystal Golem phases out via its triggered ability. At the beginning of your next untap step, both the Sword and the Crystal Golem attempt to phase in. Is the Sword still attached to the Golem when they do?
If they do both enter attached, then in which scenario does it ever matter whether a permanent is directly or indirectly phased out?
Raging_Squiggle says... #2
I’ve used indirect phasing to permanently phase out all equipment attached to a “Voltron token” from someone using a Nahiri, the Lithomancer deck. Indirect phasing has its uses.
Note that this was before they changed the rule to make it so tokens don’t cease to exist when phased out.
September 16, 2019 8:04 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #3
Let's go ahead and post the content of the other rule you referenced:
702.25h An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out directly will phase in attached to the object or player it was attached to when it phased out, if that object is still in the same zone or that player is still in the game. If not, that Aura, Equipment, or Fortification phases in unattached. State-based actions apply as appropriate. (See rules 704.5m and 704.5n.)
As the rule is currently written, in order for a directly-phased aura (or equipment or fortification) to phase in attached to another object, that object needs to exist (I know, I know, deep thoughts, right?). However, if that other object is phasing in at the same time as the aura then it doesn't yet exist when it's time to figure out what the aura should be attached to. You don't attach the aura after it's finished phasing in, but rather as it's phasing in. This is basically the same principle behind why an aura entering the battlefield can't be attached to another permanent entering the battlefield at the same time.
The "indirect phasing" concept exists to create a special association between objects so that you don't run into the above issue. Could the rules be rewritten to make indirect phasing unnecessary? Probably. Do I know what that would look like? No. Would it really be worth the effort? Doubtful.
September 16, 2019 1:22 p.m.
As the rule is currently written, in order for a directly-phased aura (or equipment or fortification) to phase in attached to another object, that object needs to exist (I know, I know, deep thoughts, right?). However, if that other object is phasing in at the same time as the aura then it doesn't yet exist when it's time to figure out what the aura should be attached to. You don't attach the aura after it's finished phasing in, but rather as it's phasing in. This is basically the same principle behind why an aura entering the battlefield can't be attached to another permanent entering the battlefield at the same time.
All right, thanks all.
Gidgetimer says... #1
I couldn't find any rules reason that a creature and equipment that both phased out directly would not phase in on the untap step with the equipment attached. Permanents that enter at the same time can not enter attached to one another, but a big deal is made about permanents phasing are not entering or leaving the battlefield.
Indirect phasing is necessary so that auras will play nice with phasing. It has the secondary effect that equipment and fortifications are also affected to make it consistent. If I had to hazard a guess on why 702.25g exist, it would be because of Time and Tide . They had to specify one or the other (or I guess specify that you can choose) so that there was no ambiguity. They went with the more generous option.
September 15, 2019 8:31 p.m.