What happens when I trigger the flip ability of a flipwalker when that one is a token?

Asked by Chandrian 8 years ago

To be more specific: what happens when I use Feldon of the Third Path to summon Liliana, Heretical Healer  Flip and a creature dies?

The token gets exiled... but do I get a planeswalker?

thatsuperopguy says... Accepted answer #1

You don't get a walker, but you do get the zombie token. "Whenever a token in a zone other than the battlefield, it ceases to exist."

November 3, 2015 12:31 p.m.

Slycne says... #2

See also. A clone does not copy the flipped side and won't transform.

  • 711.5. Except for determining whether or not a permanent can transform, a spell, ability, effect, or rule that needs information about a double-faced permanent sees only the information given by the face thats currently up.

  • Example: A Clone enters the battlefield as a copy of Wildblood Pack (the back face of a double-faced card). The Clone will be a copy of the Wildblood Pack. Because the Clone is itself not a double-faced card, it cant transform.

November 3, 2015 1:53 p.m.

Slycne says... #3

Note that Liliana, Heretical Healer  Flip only triggers if another nontoken creature you control dies. So Feldon of the Third Path copies Liliana, Heretical Healer  Flip. At the end of the turn you sacrifice the Liliana, Heretical Healer  Flip token and nothing else happens. If while the Liliana, Heretical Healer  Flip token was in play nontoken creature you control died the ability would trigger and exile the token, which can't return and ceases to exist once SBA get checked, and you'd get the zombie.

  • 110.5g A token that has left the battlefield cant move to another zone or come back onto the battlefield. If such a token would change zones, it remains in its current zone instead. It ceases to exist the next time state-based actions are checked; see rule 704.
November 3, 2015 2:04 p.m.

@ thatsuperopguy & Slycne

I believe inn order for him to get the 2/2 zombie token, Liliana, Heretical Healer  Flip would have had to return to the battlefield transformed into her planeswalker side. As the triggered ability's conditions are that you exile her and return her to the battlefield flipped, for the effect's condition to be met. Otherwise, the ability is then removed from the stack and does nothing else after exiling Lili.

603.4.

A triggered ability may read When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect]. When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isnt true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the intervening if clause rule.

November 3, 2015 3:06 p.m.

Rhadamanthus says... #5

@Raging_Squiggle: Notice that Liliana, Heretical Healer  Flip isn't written with an "intervening if" clause. The applicable rule is the following:

117.12. Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, "[Do something]. If [a player] [does or doesn't], [effect]." or "[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does or doesn't], [effect]." The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The "If [a player] [does or doesn't]" clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.

Because the player started to perform the instruction ("exile Liliana, Heretical Healer...") the "if you do" check at the end will be true. It doesn't matter if some other game rule or effect interferes with the results of following the instruction. The player gets the Zombie token.

November 3, 2015 3:32 p.m.

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