What happens if you steal a Triumph of Saint Katherine that dies?
Asked by Yesterday 1 year ago
What happens to a Triumph of Saint Katherine that an opponent owns if you steal it and it dies?
You exile it and the top six cards of your library, then shuffle the pile minus the Triumph, then put the six cards you own on top of your library? And Triumph... stays in exile? You put it on top of its owner's library?
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #2
There is only one exile zone. The controller of Triumph of Saint Katherine will exile the top 6 cards of their library and then shuffle them and Triumph into a facedown pile. Then the 6 cards they own will go on top of their library and the Triumph of Saint Katherine will go on top of its owners library. For ease and less wear on cards I'd not bother shuffling the Triumph in with the other 6 cards. But technically all 7 will get shuffled together and then each card will go on top of their respective owner's libraries.
400.1. A zone is a place where objects can be during a game. There are normally seven zones: library, hand, battlefield, graveyard, stack, exile, and command. Some older cards also use the ante zone. Each player has their own library, hand, and graveyard. The other zones are shared by all players.
400.3. If an object would go to any library, graveyard, or hand other than its owner’s, it goes to its owner’s corresponding zone.
November 7, 2022 10:25 p.m.
Okay, but isn't is also a rule somewhere that if cards are put face-down in a pile together, that they are meant to be indistinguishable from each other? And if so, is there an actual way of following the rules to the letter without just magically knowing?
November 12, 2022 7:02 p.m.
Yesterday I'm sure you could just differentiate by sleeve, but in a competitive setting you could also call a judge to help make sure all cards go to the respective zones
November 12, 2022 7:35 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #5
Yes, but I don't understand why one would want to follow the rules to the letter when it makes no difference to the end result. But to follow rules to the letter you need to involve an additional person, who isn't a player within the game that this is taking place, to find the Triumph of Saint Katherine so that all cards can go to their correct zones. In a tournament this will be a judge (though after the first time being called to find the Triumph I foresee them instructing you to handle it the way I suggested). In a casual game it will be an innocent bystander.
701.20a To shuffle a library or a face-down pile of cards, randomize the cards within it so that no player knows their order.
November 13, 2022 3:34 p.m.
In the future, please remember to hit the green "Mark as Answer" button to indicate your question has been resolved. Since this has been answered for several days and the follow-up question was resolved as well, I have marked an answer on your behalf.
November 13, 2022 5:15 p.m.
You marked the question as answered less than 24 hours after my latest post. I didn't forget, I hadn't finished yet. I'll make a new thread so that people can see it I guess.
November 14, 2022 11:33 a.m.
November 14, 2022 11:49 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #9
I've been following this discussion but didn't get into it because I felt like the points that were brought up covered what needed to be done. A card can only go to its owner's library, so you have to account for that when randomizing the objects in the pile.
I had a thought after reading through all this again and found the following rulings note from the Gatherer entry for Jeskai Infiltrator:
2014/11/24: A card's owner is public information at all times. If the two cards you exile are owned by different players (perhaps because you gained control of a Jeskai Infiltrator owned by your opponent), which card is which is no longer hidden from your opponent. That player will know which face-down creature he or she owns.
The reference to "public information" means this ruling is also relying on the MTR to address the situation, since that's where the different classes of information are defined for tournament play (the CR doesn't approach information in this way). I have no idea why Triumph of Saint Katherine wasn't given a similar rulings note in its Gatherer entry.
November 14, 2022 12:07 p.m.
Thanks, I wasn't aware of that rule but it makes sense.
Opinion: I honestly think Wizards are pumping out cards at an unstable pace and that's why this slipped through the cracks in testing in its weird wording, rather than intentionally being designed to be weird about being stolen.
November 14, 2022 1:58 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #11
I wasn't right about the MTR reference. The classes of information described there are "status", "free", "derived", and "private". I think this concept of ownership being public information is an "unspoken rule" that's considered as given/obvious but might not actually be documented anywhere in the CR. If it is, I'm having the darnedest time finding it.
November 14, 2022 3:36 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #12
I was having the same issue. There isn't a rule that covers the fact that the owner of a card is known to all participants. I was unaware of the ruling though, I find it a good basis for handling Triumph of Saint Katherine.
TheOfficialCreator says... #1
Your opponent will exile the top six cards of your library in a face-down pile, then shuffle and put that pile on top, while Triumph of Saint Katherine will go to your exile face-down and stay there since you still own it.
Essentially, if you exile a card, it will always go to the exile of its owner, not its controller's exile. So since it's not in your exile, it's not part of the pile that goes in the stack that's shuffled in.
November 7, 2022 6:35 p.m.