Undying and multiple -1/-1
Asked by Ryukashin 13 years ago
So I'm building an undying deck and I want to know how this combo works. So I have a creature with undying out on the field that currently has a +1/+1 counter on it, my opponent has a large field of creatures so I use black sun's zenith for lets say 3 -1/-1 counters on every creature. So my undying was a 2/1 with a single +1/+1 counter now having 3 -1/-1 counters placed on it.
Here's the argument: Me: because of the rules on +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters canceling each other out (putting a -1/-1 on a creature that has a +1/+1 counter removes both counters) the +1/+1 counter would be removed before the creatures toughness is reduced to 0 which would again bring the creature back with a +1/+1 counter on it.
Friends: When multiple counters are place on the creature so that it will die, the effect looks at the state of the creature before it died to see if the effect is triggered. Ex. so the creature was a 2/1 with +1/+1 and 3 -1/-1 counters are placed on it at once killing it, since it had the +1/+1 counter on it before it died (in the same action since the whole thing would happen at once as the resolution to zenith's effect) the creature would not come back as undying.
What is currently correct? I know currently that if we deal only with a singe -1/-1 counter to remove the +1/+1 counter in a separate effect before the creatures death that it will get its undying effect and come back.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #2
Your friends are right. State based actions are checked and executed simultaneously, so the counters wipe each other at the same time the creature is put into the graveyard for having 0 or less toughness. Undying is a "leaves the battlefield trigger", and those kinds of triggers check the game state as it was when the object was last on the battlefield. While your undying creature was still on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so undying doesn't trigger.
603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially because the object with the ability may no longer be on the battlefield, may have moved to a hand or library, or may no longer be controlled by the appropriate player. The game has to "look back in time" to determine if these abilities trigger. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward.
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, "Timing and Priority"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no statebased actions are performed as the result of the step's first check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.
January 27, 2012 4:11 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #3
It's been a while since I was wrong in answering a question, but it does happen. Rhadamanthus is correct, though it does seem rather counter-intuitive. (pun intended). The state based actions creates one event. So the counters are removed an the creature is put in the graveyard all at the same time. Undying then does it's check right before it was sent to the graveyard. Since the counter was removed as it was put in the graveyard it still sees the +1/+1 Counter and thus remains in the graveyard.
January 27, 2012 4:36 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
A couple weeks ago I would have given the wrong answer about this too. It took the Dark Ascension Mechanics article and a close re-reading of the associated rules before I actually understood this interaction.
January 27, 2012 4:48 p.m.
I only picked up on this recently, myself. Thanks to Rhadamanthus and I believe Epochalyptik. I like to think I'm in a pretty similar boat as rckclimber777 with my rules knowledge, but things like this always sneak up and surprise me.
January 27, 2012 5:03 p.m.
Ok so just to recap to make sure I understand completely before the set comes out and I start playing this type of deck. If I create a state based action that will kill the creature within that action as in putting multiple counters on it, then it will not comeback because the game sees it with the plus counter before it died.
However, if there is more than one action on the stack as in an undying creature with a plus counter on it is targeted with a go for the throat and I respond with a virulent wound, the stack resolves backwards the first action removes the plus counter because on the incoming negative counter and resolves leaving an undying creature with no counters on it and then the stack moves to the second action being the go for the throat's resolution placing that creature into the graveyard. Since the counter was removed before the beginning of the second action the creature would then come back with a plus counter.
Also, reconfirming another aspect, an undying creature died on opponents turn and came back, lets say I blocked. At the end phase I activate virulent wound and remove the counter before preceding to my turn, from that point on (that point being the beginning of my turn) anything that happens that would kill the card would activate the undying effect, even if it was zenith for multiple counters since there was no plus counter at death.
January 27, 2012 5:56 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
That's right. In your second and third examples, the creature loses the +1/+1 counter well before it dies, so undying brings it back.
rckclimber777 says... #1
As I mentioned in the previous post part of the state based actions will remove the +1/+1 counter leaving only 2 -1/-1 counters (opposite counters do not exist on the same creature at the same time). The creature will then be checked for toughness which is 0 and thus put in the graveyard. It did not have any +1/+1 counters when it went to the graveyard and thus will be returned to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter.
The below ruling is for the fact that +1/+1 counter is removed during state based checks.
420.5n If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it
January 27, 2012 4:02 p.m.