Turn to Frog and the Stack question
Asked by ObiRod 9 years ago
I have a probably dumb question regarding the stack.
Say a Meandering Towershell is attacking me. I decide to react by Turn to Frog so that I may block it with a simple Boon Satyr (Random creature that came to mind)
My opponent reacts to my Turn to Frog by casting Mortal's Resolve on his creature.
What happens in this stack?
1: Meandering Towershell gains +1/+1 and Indestructible because Mortal's Resolve was at the top of the stack now.
2: Turn to Frog turns the Meandering Towershell into a Frog with 1/1. I know it retains the +1/+1 counter, but what about Indestructible?
Wouldn't Indestructible be removed by the Turn to Frog because the creature lost all of its abilities after the Mortal's Resolve resolved first due to the stack order?
3: Both creatures kill each other.
Thanks for the quick response, and thanks for the clarification. I spent a good turn arguing for this with a friend.
By the way, how does the Meandering Towershell become a 0/1? The Turn to Frog would turn it into a 1/1, then the Mortal's Resolve adds a +1/+1, bring it up to a 2/2 Frog -- enough damage to kill my Boon Satyr .
September 30, 2014 1:14 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #3
Ah, you are correct. I must have confused Turn to Frog 's effect with that of a similar card, such as Turn or Ovinize . Meandering Towershell will be a 2/2, and both creatures will die.
September 30, 2014 1:22 a.m.
FancyTuesday says... #4
Are you sure your opponent meant to cast Mortal's Resolve in response to Turn to Frog and not simply... you know, after Turn to Frog resolved? They receive priority after spells resolve, there's no reason for them to play it like that. That's probably the root of the argument, them not understanding the nature of their misplay.
September 30, 2014 4:26 a.m.
Meandering Towershell came back from Exile and attacking during his attack phase. I blocked with my Boon Satyr because I had enough dual lands to casst Turn to Frog and no islands (bypassed Island walk).
I cast Turn to Frog He immediately cast Mortal's Resolve
I can't think of how he would be able to cast the Resolve at any other point thought. I mean, attackers and defenders were declared. During the damage dealing step I cast an instant which brought him back down to a 1/1 Frog. If he had waited for my Turn to Frog to finish casting, his creature would have died since I was already blocking and ready to deal the damage.
Unless I'm horribly wrong on how the stack works (which is a high possibility since I'm kinda new to the game).
September 30, 2014 10:08 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #6
From your more detailed explanation, it sounds like this is one of those "had to be there" moments to really know whether or not your opponent made his play in the best way.
After players let a spell or ability resolve, the game doesn't just move forward to the next step/phase. It gives everyone another chance to take actions instead. If all players pass over an empty stack instead of taking actions, then the game moves forward.
In your situation, you said you cast Turn to Frog and your opponent responded with Mortal's Resolve . If this is exactly what happened, your opponent fumbled his play. Mortal's Resolve resolves first, then Turn to Frog resolves and removes indestructible. The best play for your opponent would have been to let Turn to Frog resolve, then cast Mortal's Resolve instead of passing. His creature would have then gained indestructible before the game moved on to dealing combat damage.
September 30, 2014 11:13 a.m.
FancyTuesday says... Accepted answer #7
Rhadamanthus has it right. Magic's phases are not limited to a single opportunity to perform actions per step, the game does not move on to the next step automatically just because the stack has emptied after someone did something. Quite the opposite, actually.
So your opponent, being the one who's attacking, is the "active player." Almost all priority begins with him. Combat begins and, assuming there are no triggers, he has priority to cast spells. After he passes priority, this is when the defending player must remove creatures if they want to prevent "on attack" triggers like Aurelia, the Warleader . Once all players have passed priority the game moves on.
During the "Declare Attackers" step he declares attackers. Once he is done, Meandering Towershell 's delayed trigger resolves and he's put on to the battlefield tapped and attacking but is not declared as an attacker this turn. Then there's a round of priority like before (in fact there's an extra one since an ability resolved) which all players must pass on before the game can move on. This is when he would have to remove creatures to prevent you from being able to declare them as blockers, after this point his creatures are still "blocked" if he removes the blocking creature.
"Declare Blockers." The first thing that happens here is you declare blockers, so Boon Satyr is now blocking Meandering Towershell . Assuming nothing triggers because of declared blockers we now go to tricks. Once the active player has passed priority you cast Turn to Frog , which he has a chance to respond to. If he casts Mortal's Resolve while Turn to Frog is still on the stack things happen as Epochalyptik described. If he does not, Turn to Frog resolves and he gets priority again because:
116.3b The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.
If he casts Mortal's Resolve now his Meandering Towershell will be a 2/2 with Indestructible because of the time stamps within the same layer. Only after all players pass on yet another round of priority (because Mortal's Resolve... resolved) does the game move on to "Combat Damage" step.
Epochalyptik says... #1
I'm going to assume the Meandering Towershell was returned to the battlefield tapped and attacking this turn, so its triggered ability doesn't play into this scenario.
You're correct when you surmise that Meandering Towershell will lose indestructible. Indestructible. Both Mortal's Resolve and Turn to Frog create ability adding or removing effects, which means they are applied in layer 6 of the layer system (the layer system is the way in which the game determines how various static effects are applied). Because Mortal's Resolve resolved first, the ability-adding effect that grants Meandering Towershell has the earliest timestamp. Therefore, this effect is applied first. Then, the ability-removing effect from Turn to Frog is applied, stripping the Meandering Towershell of its abilities, including indestructible.
Meandering Towershell also goes from being a 5/9 to a 0/1 (layer 7B) and then to a 1/2 (layer 7D).
As a 1/2, it can't kill Boon Satyr , but Boon Satyr will deal it lethal damage. End result: dead Meandering Towershell , still-living Boon Satyr with 1 damage marked on it.
September 30, 2014 1:05 a.m.