Tragic Slip Vs Indestructible.
Asked by Wolfpig 5 years ago
I've noticed a lot of questions about this, its quite upsetting really with such vague standing in the rules. So id like to clarify how ive been treating this and ask for feed back. Apologies to some, you may think this is old news, it has become relevant for me recently again. So say you have Predator Ooze and someone Tragic Slips it, so here are how clean up rules work.
514.1 First, if the active player’s hand contains more cards than their maximum hand size (normally seven), they discard enough cards to reduce their hand size to that number. This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack.
514.2 Second, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage marked on permanents (including phased-out permanents) is removed and all “until end of turn” and “this turn” effects end. This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack.
514.3 Normally, no player receives priority during the cleanup step, so no spells can be cast and no abilities can be activated. However, this rule is subject to the following exception:
514.3a At this point, the game checks to see if any state-based actions would be performed and/or any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack (including those that trigger “at the beginning of the next cleanup step”). If so, those state-based actions are performed, then those triggered abilities are put on the stack, then the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass in succession, another cleanup step begins.
So basically, wouldn't tragic slip end, then "legend rule" takes effects after? Just trying to understand because this is super important how the phases work. I need to be 100% on this. A card like Black Sun's Zenith would cause removal, but the slip would not? Because it is resolved before the Ooze?
I'm really lost. Where does the legend rule enter in? Why is Tragic Slip wearing off? It's normally used as a kill spell, and can kill Predator Ooze before it doesn't have counters without morbid. There's a lot of information about cleanup here, but this interaction usually doesn't make it to the cleanup step.
October 25, 2018 9:52 a.m.
It would have to make it to the clean-up as lethal damage checks do not apply to an Indestructible.
October 25, 2018 9:57 a.m.
Sorry, I didn't mean to quote the legend rule as a direct reference. I ment to say how is it people are just left to interpret a cross reference of several rules to resolve something. People are saying, Tragic is a static, which it is until end of turn, when its cleaned. So my question is reducing a creatures toughness to 0 causes a state based check, that's ignored by Indestructible till clean up, That comes off, then creatures with 0 toughness are removed.
October 25, 2018 10:02 a.m.
State-based actions are checked whenever a player would receive priority, not just at the cleanup step.
So let's say you have a Predator Ooze with 7 counters on it, and during your first main phase your opponent Murders another creature to get Morbid (or makes something die in any number of other ways), then casts Tragic Slip on your Ooze. Your 8/8 Ooze gets -13/-13, making it -5/-5. The next time a player would receive priority (either to resolve another spell, or to pass an empty stack to move on to the Combat Phase), state-based actions are checked and see that your Ooze has toughness of 0 or less, so your Ooze goes to the graveyard. We're not even at combat yet and it's already dead.
Indestructible doesn't ignore 0 toughness, not even until cleanup. It only ignores lethal damage marked on the creature, and "destroy" effects.
October 25, 2018 10:49 a.m.
Relevant rules are 704.2 and 704.3.
704.2. State-based actions are checked throughout the game and are not controlled by any player.
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no state-based actions are performed as the result of the step’s first check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.
October 25, 2018 10:51 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
They key thing here is that indestructible doesn't "ignore state based checks". It only means the object can't be destroyed by "destroy" effects or lethal marked damage. Having 0 or less toughness, the legend rule, and everything else still applies. If Predator Ooze has 13 or less total toughness and someone hits it with a morbid Tragic Slip, it will be put into the graveyard right after Slip resolves. It won't wait to die until some later point in the turn.
And to be clear: the game doesn't wait until the cleanup step to check for state-based actions. They're checked right before each time a player would get priority, all throughout the turn.
October 25, 2018 11:08 a.m. Edited.
Rhadamanthus says... #8
FYI: I changed the Accepted Answer to something more relevant. This is for the benefit of anyone else who finds this thread while searching for an answer to a similar question.
October 25, 2018 11:12 a.m.
Then why does the rules word it so vaguely?
702.12b A permanent with indestructible can’t be destroyed. Such permanents aren’t destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g)
October 25, 2018 1:48 p.m.
The reason I am asking is, I looked up and it seemed they added more wording to the rules recently. and I thought the only thing that bypassed this was Wither or -x/-x counters.
October 25, 2018 1:51 p.m.
I think this is where im getting super confused, I thought the State based action of a creature with 0 toughness and the Clean up stage at the end of a players turn where completely different things.
October 25, 2018 1:57 p.m.
Ah nvm, I asked on Judges and got a more clear response, ty!
October 25, 2018 2:03 p.m.
Sorry I worded the question so poorly! Thanks for all the responses.
October 25, 2018 2:07 p.m.
Just so it's listed here too, -X/-X from cards like Tragic Slip isn't considered damage at all, or destruction. It's basically the temporary version of a number of -1/-1 counters, much like a card that grants +X/+X until end of turn, like Might of the Masses is the temporary version of a card that places +1/+1 counters like River Heralds' Boon. It doesn't kill a creature by assigning it lethal damage or destroying it, it kills it by simply making its toughness much lower and letting state-based actions do the rest.
So 702.12b isn't referring to effects like Tragic Slip, it's referring to damage like Lightning Strike or destruction like Murder. Neither of these work on Predator Ooze.
And yes, the state-based action of a creature with 0 toughness going to the graveyard, and the Cleanup Step at the end of a turn, are different things. As mentioned, state-based actions are constantly checked. The Cleanup Step at the end of the turn just helps clear things up and "reset" them for the next player's turn. This is where Tragic Slip would wear off if it didn't kill the creature (cast without morbid on something tougher than 1, or applied to a creature like Impervious Greatwurm with a toughness greater than 13).
October 25, 2018 4:57 p.m.
There’s been a lot of talk here, and I think the answer has been pretty firmly stated, but I took issue with one comment and wanted to respond.
Then why does the rules word it so vaguely?
702.12b A permanent with indestructible can’t be destroyed. Such permanents aren’t destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g)
The phrase “destroy” is a term of art clearly defined by rule 701.7. There is no room for ambiguity or vagueness - all relevant terms are clearly defined, such that 702.12b can only be read in one specific way.
Wolfpig says... #1
So basically, would tragic slip end, then "legend rule" takes effects after?-edit
October 25, 2018 9:30 a.m.