Timing on combat damage redirection
Asked by Wrathgaar 3 years ago
I'm creating a cost-activated creature ability mechanic for a custom set I'm making that works similarly to Deflecting Palm, which reads: "Pay (activation cost): Prevent the next 1 combat damage that would be dealt to this creature this turn. If damage is prevented this way, this creature deals that much damage to another target creature." My question is what happens if I give a creature with that ability deathtouch? Say a 2/2 deathoucher with my mechanic is blocking a 3/3. If I activate the deflection ability once, targeting the 3/3, will 1 deathtouch damage hit the 3/3 the same time as the remaining un-deflected 2 damage hits the 2/2, killing them both simultaneously? Would the deflected damage go on the stack and resolve first, killing the 3/3 and preventing the remaining 2 damage from hitting the 2/2? Or would the deflected damage go on the stack and resolve first, killing the 3/3, but the remaining 2 combat damage would still resolve after that despite its source not being on the battlefield anymore and kill the 2/2? Cheers
With how you've worded the ability, combat would resolve as the 3/3 dealing 2 combat damage to the 2/2 and the 2/2 dealing 2 combat damage and 1 noncombat damage to the 3/3, with all damage occurring simultaneously. Both creatures will die.
If instead you replaced the "If damage is prevented" with "When damage is prevented" you would not choose the target when you resolve the activation, but rather when the damage actually gets prevented, so the damage would resolve as the 3/3 dealing 2 combat damage to the 2/2 and the 2/2 dealing 2 combat damage to the 3/3, killing them both (because of deathtouch) and creating a trigger for the 2/2 to deal damage to another target creature. Neither of the creatures involved in combat would be valid targets due to no longer being on the battlefield, but whatever creature does get targeted would die, as last known information about the creature dealing the damage is that it had deathtouch.
As a third option, you can look at en-Kor creatures which use damage redirection instead of prevention. If the ability worked that way, combat would resolve as the 3/3 dealing 2 combat damage to the 2/2 and 1 combat damage to itself, and the 2/2 dealing 2 combat damage to the 3/3, again simultaneously like in the first scenario, and again with both of them dying.
January 11, 2021 7:37 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #3
The way you have that ability worded, the "redirected" damage doesn't use the stack. Which makes it a bit weird with targeting since you are going to have to declare targets when you activate the ability to create the shield. The way it works as written is that the 2 damage will be dealt to the 2/2, then 1 deathtouch will be dealt to the 3/3 with no player receiving priority in between. When a player would receive priority SBAs will be checked and both creatures will be destroyed.
(super ninjaed, but posting anyway)
615.5. Some prevention effects also include an additional effect, which may refer to the amount of damage that was prevented. The prevention takes place at the time the original event would have happened; the rest of the effect takes place immediately afterward.
If you wanted the redirected damage from your ability to use they stack you would need to word it as "Pay (activation cost): Prevent the next 1 combat damage that would be dealt to this creature this turn. WHEN damage is prevented this way, this creature deals that much damage to another target creature." If the wording were changed to be this then the 2 damage would be dealt to the 2/2. The 1 deathtouch damage would trigger and wait to be put on the stack. When a player would receive priority SBAs will be checked and the 2/2 will be destroyed. Then the 1 deathtouch trigger would be put on the stack (abilities exist independently of their sources). When all players pass with the deathtouch damage being the top object on the stack the deathtouch damage will be dealt and the next time SBAs are checked the 3/3 will be destroyed.
January 11, 2021 7:56 p.m.
Thanks for the help, guys. You've all explained the answer very clearly. Having the ability place the redirected damage on the stack isn't necessary to me (no matter whether it resolves before or after combat damage), but I did want to make sure that I understood how it worked all the same, deathtouch being a clear case of when that could be important. That point about declaring a target upon activation as it's currently worded is a good one to note though.
And I want the creature with the ability itself to be the source of the redirected damage, which isn't the case with the en-Kor creatures, otherwise I would've used their much simpler wording, haha.
January 12, 2021 4:39 a.m.
Another thought, if you did want the target locked in when the ability is activated, but still to use the stack, you could try this:
[Cost]: Choose target creatures. Prevent the next 1 damage that would be dealt to this creature this turn. When damage is prevented this way, it deals 1 damage to the chosen creature.
Yesterday says... #1
To make the Deflected damage ability work properly, you'd need to change the wording slightly to "When damage is prevented this way, [ping something]".
If you do that, activating the ability causes a delayed trigger to go on the stack (it triggers when the activated creature would become damaged). You wouldn't choose a target for the redirected damage until that delayed trigger gets put on the stack.
If a 2/2 with this ability would take three simultaneous damage, as in your example above, then when state-based actions are next checked, it would die and the ability would go onto the stack at the same time. Then you'd get to choose a target for the deathtouch ping. If for some reason the attacker survived the deathtouch combat (like if it had First Strike), you could target and kill it with the delayed trigger ability. Only after your creature died though.
January 11, 2021 7:34 p.m.