Stacking triggers with gift of immortality
Asked by Monomanamaniac 4 years ago
In my Teysa Karlov edh deck I use Gift of Immortality and have noticed a few odd instances concerning how the double death trigger will work. So the first is with teysa, gift, and a sacrifice engine. Namely, does gift of immortality get the double death trigger, and can I interrupt them by say: returning the creature with the death trigger, killing it, and bringing it back again with the second one? Next I also run Athreos, God of Passage , due to the double death trigger he gets with teysa which makes an opponent take 6 to keep it out of my hand. So the question is: if a creature dies with gift of immortality on it, can I layer the triggers so that my creature hits the battlefield instead of athreos putting it in my hand? Also, if I did put it in my hand, for whatever reason, and played it manually, would gift still come back in attached to it at the end of turn?
Gift of Immortality has an immediate trigger and a delayed trigger when the enchanted creature dies. The delayed trigger attempts to attach to 'that creature', which refers to the creature card brought back with Gift of Immortality's immediate trigger.
If the creature that is brought back should leave the battlefield for any reason before Gift of Immortality's second trigger gets to resolve, Gift stays in the graveyard instead because it doesn't see 'that creature' that it brought back. So if you were to sacrifice the creature, even if the card were to return to the battlefield before the delayed trigger triggers, the creature card becomes a new permanent on the battlefield which Gift won't recognise.
Likewise, if the creature card is returned to your hand with Athreos' ability and then cast from your hand again, Gift won't do anything because that creature is not the creature card that Gift brought back with its first triggered ability.
If you control both Athreos and Gift of Immortality, then you control the triggers from each as the enchanted creature dies. You can put them on the stack in any order. So yeah, you can have Gift of Immortality bring the creature back first, before the Athreos abilities trigger.
August 30, 2019 11:09 p.m.
Monomanamaniac says... #3
Gidgetimer so I agree with the athreos parts I have a clear reason why I think the sacrifice one would work, if I get 2 triggers. So if it works here's how I would justify: creature dies and 2 triggers go on the stack for it to bring it back to the battlefield. Now I let the first trigger resolve, bringing it back, but then before the second trigger can resolvei sacrifice it to say Phyrexian Altar , then when the second trigger resolves, it would bring the creature back in again. Now, because gift of immortality did bring it back, and if I do nothing else, would I get it to then return to it at the end of turn? Honestly this wasn't my first question, but if I could do that then it would be awesome. Now, the real kicker is would the second death trigger could potentially see the creature, because the creature it is supposed to be bringing back and the one in the graveyard are considered different creatures...
Yesterday my question for you would be why doesn't the second part get doubled? I know they're different triggers, but they're both being triggered because of the creature dying in the first place. So basically it boils down to: could the second trigger even recognize that the creature in the graveyard was the creature that it was targeting in the first place.
Thanks for the answers though, now that I look closer at it I'm starting to think that I could interrupt the triggers if I want to but it doesn't matter because the creature that is in the graveyard the second time isn't the same that died the first and therefore couldn't be recognized by the effect... So it wouldn't do anything. I just wanted a magic Christmas land where the creature dies, comes back, gets saced, comes back, and gets the gift back. I do think if I get to bring it back the second time then the gift would attach to it because it's part of the trigger that I would think teysa would copy. I'd like to hear some what you think of this part, and will accept the answer that answers it.
August 31, 2019 12:21 a.m.
Monomanamaniac says... #4
And there's this
400.7d Abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another (for example, “When Rancor is put into a graveyard from the battlefield”) can find the new object that it became in the zone it moved to when the ability triggered, if that zone is a public zone
August 31, 2019 12:32 a.m.
Monomanamaniac says... #5
Oh and there's this but it just confuses me even more lol
400.7e Abilities of Auras that trigger when the enchanted permanent leaves the battlefield can find the new object that Aura became in its owner’s graveyard if it was put into that graveyard at the same time the enchanted permanent left the battlefield. It can also find the new object that Aura became in its owner’s graveyard as a result of being put there as a state-based action for not being attached to a permanent. (See rule 704.5m)
There's a few others but honestly the rules seem to imply that the broken way actually could work. Enchantments can recognize the enchanted creature as it changes zones as long as it stays in a public zone (ie: battlefield, graveyard). I May have missed something but I really do think it would work. Not with athreos, because your hand is not a public zone.
August 31, 2019 12:48 a.m.
You do not seem to understand the point that Gidgetimer and Yesterday made, and are instead trying to warp the rules to befit your ends. That’s not how it works - Magic’s rules are extremely well-written, and have no room to for “how [you] would justify” their interpretation. Magic’s Rules always do exactly what they say, no more, no less.
The first rule you cited only deals with the first zone change - when Creature A leaves the battlefield it becomes a new object, but an operation of the rules allow Gift and Athreos track the new object in the graveyard. If that creature is brought back to the battlefield, it becomes a completely new object for a second time. Those rules you cited only allow tracking of the new object the creature became in the graveyard; they do not allow for tracking of the second new object they become when they return to play.
The second is not really relevant. Both triggers will find the Gift in the graveyard, since it remains the same object until it is brought back into play; but the second trigger to resolve still will not do anything because it can’t find the creature anymore.
August 31, 2019 1:30 a.m. Edited.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
Let's take a closer look at part of the 400.7d you quoted: "...can find the new object that it became in the zone it moved to when the ability triggered..."
It's saying the triggers can identify the object the card became specifically at the time it changed zones and caused the abilities to trigger. If it changes zones again at a later time (here, going back to the battlefield) the abilities don't continue to track it. Even if it goes back to the graveyard at some other later time it's a totally different object than what the triggers first identified.
August 31, 2019 1:32 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #8
@Caerwyn: To be fair, figuring out how the rules are supposed to work is all about interpretation and justification. We just have to make sure we find the correct interpretation/justification. The rules are written in a regular, well-defined way, but sometimes the text needs a bit of close analysis to make sure we're getting it right.
August 31, 2019 1:42 a.m.
Rhadamanthus - fair. Retreading my post, it came off a bit more aggressively than was my intent. Apologies Monomanamaniac!
August 31, 2019 1:45 a.m.
Monomanamaniac says... #10
Lol, thanks. The problem is that teysa karlov warps the game in a very small way. It sometimes creates situations that the game was not originally designed for. I'm not explicitly trying to bend the rules to my whem, just tried to detect if there were some way to exploit this death trigger... Sadly there is not. Doesn't make me sad, I honestly hadn't even thought about it until I started trying to see if there was a way around the athreos trigger with gift of immortality, which works and that's great. The deck that is using these cards likes to see things die and likes to be the one killing them, I am constantly striving to understand how all the cards work together.
I've never tried to say that combo worked in a game, the original line of play that lead to this was having Hallowed Spiritkeeper Gift of Immortality and Teysa Karlov in play and not wanting my spiritkeeper to go to my hand when I saced it to whatever sac engine I was using at the time.
Alas, I am satisfied with the conclusion. Gift gets 2 triggers but 1 is countered by state based actions.
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #1
So there are like three questions intertwined in this. I am going to try to separate them out and answer each one. If I miss something that you asked or need further clarification on something just ask.
"Can I returning the creature with the death trigger, sacrifice it, and bring it back again with the second trigger?" (concerning double Gift of Immortality trigger)
No, once a card changes zones it is a new game object. This means that even though it is physically the same card, the game sees a difference between the creature that died with Gift on it and the creature you sacrificed that didn't have gift on it.
"If a creature dies with gift of immortality on it, can I layer the triggers so that my creature hits the battlefield instead of athreos putting it in my hand?"
Yes, you control all the triggers, so you can stack it so that the Gift trigger resolves first. After that the Athreos triggers will still resolve, but if your opponent does not pay life there will be no card in the graveyard to return to your hand. They can still pay the life if they want to though (like if they had a Vilis, Broker of Blood and just wanted to pay the life.)
"If I did put it in my hand, for whatever reason, and played it manually, would gift still come back in attached to it at the end of turn?"
Again even if it is the same physical card, the creature played will not be put there by the resolution of the Gift of Immortality trigger and will therefore not be the game object that the delayed trigger off of gift will be looking for. The same thing would happen if Gift had been allowed to resolve and then your opponent overloaded a Cyclonic Rift and you replayed the creature. Different game object, gift will not be returned.
August 30, 2019 11:05 p.m.