snake form + undying
Asked by ADj 8 years ago
Hi, active tappedout user with an honest weird fun question here. Please rule citiation or explaination with the aswer would be great!
If a creature is Snakeformed and when its already a snake has Undying Evil cast on it. and then it dies.
what happens? Does the creature come back as a 1/1 snake with a +1/+1 counter?
Or does the creature that was transform into a snake come back?
TY in advance!
@BlueScopeYou may be right about the snakeform removing the effect from Undying Evil, but it has recently come to my understanding that cards like Snakeform or Turn to Frog do not remove power boosts like Giant Growth. Because of this I would like to get a second opinion on this matter.
June 7, 2015 5:15 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #3
I think BlueScope may have misread a part of the question because all the facts given are correct but the first sentence of the second paragraph is wrong. This is illustrated by the fact that he answers the question in the third paragraph saying that the way it would have to work is exactly how you asked about.
For perfect clarity- If someone turns your Grave Titan into a snake with Snakeform he loses deathtouch and the zombie making ability. You then cast Undying Evil on the snake named Grave Titan and it gains undying. If it dies this turn it will come back as a 6/6 Giant named Grave Titan with deathtouch, the zombie making ability, and a 1/1 counter.
We don't need to get into timestamps because each effect is a single occurrence not a continuous effect. The creature loses all abilities when Snakeform resolves and then gains undying when Undying Evil resolves.
June 7, 2015 8:57 a.m.
@Gidgetimer: If that's what was asked for, you're right, I misread it. I thought they're asking for what happens if a creature that already has Undying Evil cast on it (and it resolved) later has Snakeform cast on it. I don't know where I read that, though :D
@Lurac: Yeah, changing base P/T is different than giving a creature +X/+X or -X/-X - they apply in seperate layers, and setting P/T is handled before adding or subtracting from either power or toughness. However, that doesn't affect anything in this scenario I don't think, as the two effects never apply at the same time (by the time the +1/+1 counter is on the creature from Undying, the P/T-changing effect is gone, as the creature was in the graveyard inbetween).
June 7, 2015 12:03 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #5
BlueScope, the way I read the 2nd paragraph of the OP is "Undying Evil after Snakeform resolves then the creature dies" not "Undying Evil on Nafs Asp. Then Snakeform. Then the creature dies". Until just now I didn't realize the second paragraph could be construed that way, but then again I read everything quickly and didn't try to see why you thought what you did.
June 7, 2015 12:15 p.m.
TY very much for the answers. Seems all of you where rigth on the answer since you all agree the creature comes back with a +1/+1 counter.
Yes, my question was what happens if the Undying Evil is cast on the creature that is already a snake because Snakeform had resolved.
The KEY part to this that I missed (and I chosed that one as the correct asnwer because of it) is when @gidgetimer clarifies that the name of the snake is still grave titan!
"You then cast Undying Evil on the snake named Grave Titan and it gains undying. If it dies this turn it will come back as a 6/6 Giant named Grave Titan with deathtouch, the zombie making ability, and a 1/1 counter.
Forgot the creature would retain its name. Taking that into account it makes perfect sense that when it dies it comes back as the creature it was BEFORE becoming a snake WITH the counter.
June 7, 2015 3:04 p.m.
Yeah, technically, the key part is that the creature card is being put into the graveyard, where it becomes a new object with no memory of it's previous state and therefore is the original card again (as everything else only works for cards on the battlefield anyway). It wouldn't matter if the name of the creature would've been 'Snake' instead, and I believe Gidgetimer used this only for clarifying purposes of whichcreature is being targetted by Undying Evil.
Gidgetimer's answer is the only correct one anyway, as mine was based on a different assumption of board state.
BlueScope says... #1
First of all, creatures "coming back" from the graveyard (or changing zones in general, really) are entirely new entities and don't "remember" effects that were true about themselves previously. This is also true if the creature changes zones for only a short period of time, such as with Undying.
The fact that it's already a snake also doesn't make a difference.
Either way, the creature doesn't come back at all - gaining and losing abilities are handled in timestamp order, and Snakeform makes the targetted creature lose Undying.
And to illustrate the concept: If a Grizzly Bears was Snakeform'd and then gained Undying (making it a 1/1 green Snake with Undying), and finally put to the graveyard, undying would trigger. It would return a Runeclaw Bears to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it.
June 7, 2015 4:53 a.m.