Question about Liliana, Heretical Healer & Transform ability
Asked by doctorsmegma 8 years ago
Correct me if I'm wrong but I have 2 things I need to clear up about this card.
Situation 1: Liliana, Heretical Healer Flip and Zurgo Bellstriker are on the field at same time. My opponent attempts to use an Ultimate Price on Liliana.
If I respond with a Wild Slash to kill Zurgo Bellstriker will the Ultimate Price resolve?
My understanding is that Zurgo should die, Lilliana gets exiled/transformed, and Ultimate Price never resolves, fizzles and goes into the graveyeard. Right?
Now.. I have another situation/question about how Liliana works.
Nowhere in the text does it clarify when/where/how a creature must die in order for Liliana to transform. It also does not say that Liliana must be on the battlefield in order for her to transform.
Situation 2: Liliana, Heretical Healer Flip is in the graveyard. My Zurgo Bellstriker dies from an Ultimate Price. What stops Liliana, Heretical Healer Flip from returning from the graveyard in her transformed form?
After all, you can exile cards in graveyards... so I'd assume that as long as Liliana, Heretical Healer Flip is in the graveyard, the effect should technically still work even if she's dead... or am overlooking this too much.
I'd like to know if there is a specific rule to stop Liliana from leaving the graveyard because if there isn't she's fucking 100x more insane than she was before these situations popped into my head.
merrowMania says... #2
Your first situation is correct in all regards. For the second situation, Liliana will not be exiled from the graveyard. I will be back after I find the specific rule to back it up.
July 25, 2015 8:11 p.m.
merrowMania says... #3
Well, I don't know the exact rule, but I can explain everything in rules speech:
The ability expects Liliana, Heretical Healer Flip to be on the battlefield during the resolution of her triggered ability. If there was a caveat for the graveyard, the rules text would resemble Rakshasa Vizier. That's also why there is the "if you do" clause on the zombie token (it's also to prevent you from saccing all your creatures in response to the trigger to get a zombie per creature).
July 25, 2015 8:20 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #4
Situation 1: Ultimate Price will not resolve, it will be countered because the object it was targeting is no longer a legal target for Ultimate Price. It is, however, the same object. Transforming does not cause an object to change zones, so if Liliana, Heretical Healer Flip had been targeted by Vindicate she would still be destroyed.
711.7 When a double-faced permanent transforms, it doesn't become a new object. Any effects that applied to that permanent will continue to apply to it after it transforms.
Situation 2: Liliana's triggered ability, like all abilities, is only active when she is on the battlefield unless it the rules text explicitly states otherwise. Bloodghast would be an example of a triggered ability that is active while the card is in your graveyard.
July 25, 2015 8:24 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #5
Scenario 1:
You're correct. Liliana, Heretical Healer
Flip's triggered ability triggers whenever another nontoken creature you control dies, so if one of your nontoken creatures dies while Ultimate Price is on the stack, Liliana, Heretical Healer
Flip's triggered ability will trigger and therefore resolve before Ultimate Price. When Ultimate Price attempts to resolve, it will see that its target no longer exists on the battlefield (objects become new objects whenever they change zones), so it will fizzle.
Scenario 2:
Unless otherwise stated, abilities of a permanent card function only while that card is a permanent (which means only while that card is on the battlefield). Liliana, Heretical Healer
Flip is a permanent card, and its abilities don't specify that they function from any non-battlefield zones, so they function only while Liliana, Heretical Healer
Flip is a permanent.
See Oloro, Ageless Ascetic for an example of a permanent card with abilities that function from non-battlefield zones.
July 25, 2015 8:26 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
@FancyTuesday: While you're generally correct about DFCs, the Origins creature/planeswalker DFCs specifically state that they exile themselves and then return to the battlefield transformed. Because they undergo a zone change (battlefield to exile to battlefield), they become new objects. Spells or abilities that targeted the creature will not target the planeswalker.
@merrowMania: Rakshasa Vizier isn't really a good example. Its ability doesn't function from other zones, it just cares about whether other cards are changing zones.
July 25, 2015 8:28 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #7
Oh wait, sorry I was confusing Liliana with older transform cards. I guess she does explicitly state that she blinks herself, so there you go, new object.
The way it's worded is strange, but that it mentions "return to the battlefield" leads me to think it falls under the following rule:
112.6b An ability that states which zones it functions in functions only from those zones.
July 25, 2015 8:31 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #8
It's funny, because I know what Epochalyptik said is true and I said as much myself in regards to how the game handles abilities, but I'm struggling to find where exactly I can point in the rules that says that. It's so fundamental that I just sorta take it for granted.
112.6j A trigger condition that cant trigger from the battlefield functions in all zones it can trigger from. Other trigger conditions of the same triggered ability may function in different zones.
This sorta implies that abilities are only active while in the battlefield unless it's designed to affect another zone. Still though, it's weird trying to explain the "why" of it beyond simply pointing out how out of hand triggers and static abilities would get if everything was active in the graveyard like it is on the battlefield.
July 25, 2015 8:46 p.m. Edited.
Gidgetimer says... #9
112.6. Abilities of an instant or sorcery spell usually function only while that object is on the stack. Abilities of all other objects usually function only while that object is on the battlefield. The exceptions are as follows...
I'm not going to quote the 2 pages of exceptions, but you can go read them it is 112.6 in the comp rules on wizard's site.
July 25, 2015 9:07 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #10
Ah, there it is! Thank you Gidgetimer! No idea how I looked over it so many times while scouring those two pages of exceptions looking for the rule.
doctorsmegma says... #1
should have left out the profanity. sorry about that.
July 25, 2015 7:51 p.m.