Priority question: after damage order is decided, before damage is dealt?
Asked by piebandit 8 years ago
Ok, this probably cost me a game at FNM, so I'd like to know the rules better next time. It all worked out because I ended up getting second and i wanted the Atarka opened more than the Ojutai, but that's beside the point. I'd like someone to explain if what i wanted to do was possible, and if so, how within the rules. Card names have been simplified to get rid of abilities that are irrelevant.
My opponent has a Barony Vampire and has it enchanted with Battle Mastery. I have two Fugitive Wizards on the battle field and a Coat with Venom in my hand.
If i block with both, and immediately cast Coat with Venom, my opponent will deal the first strike part of the double strike to that Fugitive Wizard and then kill the other one, negating the deathtouch. Is there a way i can block with both and cast Coat with Venom after my opponent decides the order he will assign damage but before the damage is assigned on the second one, so it survives thanks to the toughness pump, and kills the Barony Vampire thanks to the added deathtouch?
There is a round of priority between first strike damage being dealt and regular damage being dealt. During that round of priority, you can cast Coat with Venom on your surviving creature and have it deal deathtouch damage to the attacker.
May 31, 2015 12:20 a.m.
GoblinsInc says... #3
Since both wizards are 1/1 normally, you need to cast the coat before first strike damage or else he will deal 1 to each (well, 2 to one of them) and kill them both.
Luckily for you, once blockers are declared he has to assign the damage assignment order, stating what the order is that he plans to damage your creatures. Once this is done, he gets priority, and when he passes it you can cast the coat of venom on the creature that is second in line to take damage.
May 31, 2015 2:46 a.m.
Lots of different answers here - let me try to clear it up (or confuse everyone in the process...)
In the Combat Damage Step, noone receives priority after assigning the damage order, before dealing damage. For this, also see 510.2:
510.2. Second, all combat damage thats been assigned is dealt simultaneously. This turn-based action doesnt use the stack. No player has the chance to cast spells or activate abilities between the time combat damage is assigned and the time its dealt. This is a change from previous rules.
That means your last chance of casting Coat with Venom is in the declare blockers step, which won't save your creature as he can have the First Strike portion of damage be assigned to that creature.
In the scenario you described, you won't be able to save your creature.
Devonin is right about everything they said,except there won't be a surviving creature after First Strike damage to target with Coat with Venom (unless you have two copies in hand).
May 31, 2015 6:36 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #5
GoblinsInc is correct.
The damage assignment order is declared as a turn-based action after blockers are declared and before priority is given back to players. This means it happens in the declare blockers step, per 509.2 and 509.3. The damage assignment order is known to players at the time they get priority during the declare blockers step.
Damage itself is assigned as a turn-based action at the beginning of the combat damage step, per 510.1. Damage is then dealt as a turn-based action, per 510.2. No player has priority between these turn-based actions.
So, the most knowledge you will have is the damage assignment order, which is sufficient. You may choose to cast Coat with Venom on the second Fugitive Wizard in the DAO. During the first combat damage step, your opponent will have to assign at least 1 damage to the first Fugitive Wizard and may then assign the remaining damage (2 damage at most) to the second Fugitive Wizard. Because Coat with Venom gives the second Fugitive Wizard +1/+2 until end of turn, this will not be lethal damage. Both the second Fugitive Wizard and the Barony Vampire will then deal combat damage in the second combat damage step, and both will be destroyed.
509.2. Second, for each attacking creature that's become blocked, the active player announces that creature's damage assignment order, which consists of the creatures blocking it in an order of that player's choice. (During the combat damage step, an attacking creature can't assign combat damage to a creature that's blocking it unless each creature ahead of that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage.) This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.
509.3. Third, for each blocking creature, the defending player announces that creature's damage assignment order, which consists of the creatures it's blocking in an order of that player's choice. (During the combat damage step, a blocking creature can't assign combat damage to a creature it's blocking unless each creature ahead of that blocked creature in its order is assigned lethal damage.) This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.
510.1. First, the active player announces how each attacking creature assigns its combat damage, then the defending player announces how each blocking creature assigns its combat damage. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack. A player assigns a creature's combat damage according to the following rules:
510.2. Second, all combat damage that's been assigned is dealt simultaneously. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack. No player has the chance to cast spells or activate abilities between the time combat damage is assigned and the time it's dealt. This is a change from previous rules.
May 31, 2015 11:18 a.m. Edited.
Ah, that makes sense then... what happened is that I scrolled through the CR and found the 'No player has the chance to cast spells or activate abilities between the time combat damage is assigned and the time it's dealt.' line, which is quite misinterpretable on its own here... and seems to be quite unnecessary as well then. I suppose what it means is that damage no longer uses the stack then?
May 31, 2015 12:08 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
@BlueScope: Right, that sentence represents one of the changes in the rules that removed "damage on the stack". The introduction of the damage assignment order was the other major change.
May 31, 2015 12:36 p.m.
Thank you for the answer GoblinsInc and especially thanks to Epochalyptik for referencing the rules in the explanation.
FALLEN-X-ANGEL says... #1
First, you can't immediately cast the Coat of Arms because you didn't have priority, unless your opponent passed it of course. If he/she did, then this is what should be able to happen. He/she assign's combat damage to the designated creature (before the spell was cast). Once annunciation has been clear, you have priority to cast your spell, killing the Vampire, and the Wizard that wasn't "pumped up". If I'm incorrect maybe someone else can answer this question more efficiently.
May 31, 2015 12:15 a.m. Edited.