Obzedat, Ghost Council + Whip of Erebos
Asked by mysticmuslim 10 years ago
Obzedat, Ghost Council + Whip of Erebos
After bringing Obzedat from the graveyard to the battlefield and swinging for 5 with lifelink and gaining 2 from his ability, can you exile him from his second ability and he'll come back in next turn?
Epochalyptik says... #2
Please link the cards in your question.
Obzedat, Ghost Council
Whip of Erebos
This will work. Whip of Erebos creates a replacement effect that exiles the creature if it would go anywhere else. Because Obzedat, Ghost Council is already going to exile, the replacement effect doesn't do anything. Obzedat, Ghost Council will return to the battlefield as normal when its delayed triggered ability resolves.
September 23, 2013 1:10 p.m.
Short answer: yes.
Long answer: The Whip's replacement wants to send things to exile if they go anywhere but exile from the battlefield. Since Ozzy leaves the battlefield with his own effect, the Whip's replacement effect will check to see where it went, in case it needs to go to exile. Since Ozzy sent himself to exile, the Whip is okay with it, and Ozzy can come back from exile next turn.
September 23, 2013 1:11 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
The full answer is a combination of both my answer and metalmagic's answer.
You need to stack the triggered abilities appropriately, and it's also important that Whip of Erebos 's replacement effect will not interfere with Obzedat, Ghost Council 's ability.
Make sure you select an answer, mysticmuslim.
September 23, 2013 2:36 p.m.
metalmagic says... #6
In my hastiness in preparing an answer since I haven't been on TappedOut in a few months (getting mildy excited over somewhat trivial things), I did forget to mention the whole replacement effect situation. I mainly wanted to comment again and say how much I love the ominous feel of Epochalyptik's final statement.
September 23, 2013 2:47 p.m.
I believe it also works with AEtherling for the same reason of the replacement effect.
September 23, 2013 5:25 p.m.
thelaw5252 says... #9
I don't get it...Doesn't the whip just target a creature from the graveyard, return it to the battlefield, and then stay targeted on it for the rest of its effects? How do you play it off Obzedat? I'm just not seeing it.
October 13, 2013 3:12 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
@thelaw5252: I'm not quite sure what you're saying.
Also, Whip of Erebos 's ability only targets while it's on the stack. It doesn't target anything after resolution, although the effects are still applied to the formerly-targeted creature.
October 13, 2013 3:20 a.m.
thelaw5252 says... #11
"Return target creature card from your graveyard to the battlefield. IT (creature from graveyard) gains haste. Exile IT (creature from graveyard) at the beginning of the next end step. If IT (creature from graveyard) would leave the battlefield, exile IT (same creature from the graveyard) instead of putting it (same creature again..) anywhere else. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery."
I just don't see how it plays off of Obzedat....can you lay it out?
October 13, 2013 4 a.m.
GreatSword says... #12
Both of the end-of-turn exiling effects for Obzedat, Ghost Council and Whip of Erebos trigger at the same time, which means you can put them on the stack in any order. If you put the Obzedat self-exiling trigger on top, it'll resolve first, which will set-up the delayed trigger for him to return next turn. When the Whip tries to exile him immediately after that, he'll already be gone.
October 13, 2013 10:06 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #13
I still don't understand what you're confused about, so I'll go over the end-of-turn events.
Whip of Erebos 's ability resolves and creates a delayed triggered ability that triggers at the beginning of the next end step. When the DTA resolves, it will exile the returned creature.
Additionally, Whip of Erebos 's ability creates a replacement effect that exiles the returned creature if it would leave the battlefield and go to any other zone. This replacement effect doesn't interact with other exile effects because they already send the creature to exile.
Whip of Erebos 's DTA and Obzedat, Ghost Council 's own ability trigger at the exact same time: the beginning of the end step. Because you control both abilities, you choose the order in which they are put onto the stack.
If you put the Whip of Erebos 's ability on the stack first, then put Obzedat, Ghost Council 's ability on top of it, Obzedat, Ghost Council 's ability will resolve first. Obzedat, Ghost Council will be exiled and another DTA will be created to return it to the battlefield under its owner's control at the beginning of your next upkeep. Whip of Erebos 's replacement effect does nothing because Obzedat, Ghost Council went to exile rather than another zone. Whip of Erebos 's DTA resolves and does nothing because the object it would affect is no longer in the correct zone.
If you put Obzedat, Ghost Council 's ability on the stack first, then put Whip of Erebos 's ability on top of it, Whip of Erebos 's ability will resolve first. Obzedat, Ghost Council will be exiled. Then, Obzedat, Ghost Council 's ability resolves and does nothing because the object it would affect is no longer in the correct zone. Obzedat, Ghost Council won't be returned to the battlefield because the DTA that would return it was never created.
October 13, 2013 1:48 p.m.
would the fact that obzedat is "leaving the battlefield" and that the whip states that you have to "exile it instead of putting it anywhere else" kinda ruin that whole deal? like I get the whole stack thing.... but wouldnt the fact that the whips other aspect as previously stated get in the way of that?
November 14, 2013 9:06 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #15
@Vandenmg: No. As was stated multiple times, Obzedat, Ghost Council 's second ability exiles Obzedat, Ghost Council . Because Whip of Erebos 's replacement effect only applies if the card would go to a zone other than exile, Obzedat, Ghost Council is not affected by Whip of Erebos 's replacement effect.
November 14, 2013 9:14 p.m.
Epochalyptik ohhh, sorry, I read that wrong! thanks for the clarification!
November 15, 2013 11:09 a.m.
Sorry but could I get some more explanation.
Is it because of some particular ruling of Whip of Erebos that we ignore the exile trigger on the Whip? I do not see this in the card text so I assume that Wizards have some extra ruling in this case. Unless...
Or is it because when the Whip of Erebos says "Leaves the battlefield" it ignores exile effects?
Or is it because if an exile effect is on the stack then all other exile effects gets canceled?
If 2 is true then exiling Thragtusk would not create a creature token, right?
If 3 is true does that mean that I can not Swords to Plowshares on Obzedat, Ghost Council when the end-of-turn trigger is on the stack, because it is already going to exile?
Thank you for clarifying this.
January 11, 2014 6:44 a.m.
GreatSword says... #18
Whip of Erebos doesn't have an exiled "trigger" (triggers always begin with "when", "whenever", or "at"). It has a replacement effect (which use the words "if" and "instead").
The wording on Whip of Erebos is very specific:
"If it would leave the battlefield, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else."
This means that if the creature raised by Whip goes anywhere besides the exiled zone, it instead goes to the exiled zone. If that creature would be exiled, Whip will see the creature being exiled and say, "Yep, nothing to do here" and not apply its replacement effect.
This also works with AEtherling . If you Whip AEtherling out of the graveyard and activate its exile ability, it will come back at the end of the turn like normal (and not have the self-destruct trigger from Whip anymore).
Also, #2 and 3 of your points are wrong. Exiling a Thragtusk still gets you a token. Swords to Plowshares 'ing an Obzedat with its trigger on the stack will permanently exile it. Obzedat will only come back if it gets exiled by it's own ability
January 11, 2014 11:36 a.m.
I'm necroing, basically because I like discussing the way this works (and the way it doesn't work).
I think the best and most correct answer was given by metalmagic - Using the stack, Obzedat, Ghost Council 's ability resolves first, exiling itself to return next turn. Then when the Whip of Erebos 's ability tries to resolve, it has no target to exile.
You can make the argument that the Whip doesn't care if the card goes to exile so Obzedat's ability then overrides it but if you're literally reading the cards, that seems wrong. The Whip does care. In the most literal interpretation, it says that if the card leaves the battlefield, you exile it. That means that if it leaves the battlefield, no matter how or why or where it's going, exile it. It completely overrides and replaces whatever other rule might be there. "Instead of putting it anywhere else" is simply to indicate that the Whip overrides any other reason the card might be leaving the battlefield. It doesn't matter at all where the card is going when it leaves the battlefield. If it is going to exile, the Whip still overrides that and sends it to exile.
A replacement effect still happens even if it's the exact same effect it's replacing.
In a very technical sense, the only reason this works is because you can use the stack to manipulate which ability resolves first. If the Whip's ability resolves first, Obzedat would simply be exiled (permanently) and then his own ability wouldn't resolve because it would have no target.
Someone net-decking could easily mis-play this combo and lose Obzedat, if a strict opponent made them specify the order of abilities going on the stack at the beginning of the end step.
February 11, 2014 3:04 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #20
@mattbl: Whip of Erebos 's delayed triggered ability doesn't target anything.
You are also wrong about the reasons that make this situation work. Stacking order is only part of it. A quick Gatherer search returns the following ruling:
9/15/2013: If a creature returned to the battlefield with Whip of Erebos would leave the battlefield for any reason, it's exiled instead. However, if that creature is already being exiled, then the replacement effect won't apply. If the spell or ability that exiles it later returns it to the battlefield (as Chained to the Rocks might, for example), the creature card will return to the battlefield as a new object with no relation to its previous existence. The effects from Whip of Erebos will no longer apply to it.
Whip of Erebos 's effect functions in the same manner as unearth and similar effects.
February 11, 2014 3:14 p.m.
Harumph. I've been told.
It feels like WotC made that ruling simply to allow people to do things like this combo, because logically it shouldn't work that way. The card should say "if it would leave the battlefield to go anywhere other than exile, exile it instead" rather than what it says.
February 11, 2014 3:25 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #22
The "anywhere else" is what indicates that the replacement effect doesn't apply if the creature would already be exiled. The ruling wasn't created just for Whip of Erebos .
metalmagic says... #1
That is correct. Both his triggered ability and the delayed trigger ability of the Whip will trigger at the same time when you move to your End Step, and since you control both abilities you choose the order they go on the stack. To yield the result you want, simply put the Whip's trigger on the stack first and Obzedat's on the stack second, so it resolves first and the Whip's effect will do nothing.
September 23, 2013 1:09 p.m.