Nightmare +1/+1 counter scenario

Asked by Kinkybobo 2 years ago

I have 3 total questions concerning two turns I took, the description is kinda complicated so bear with me. This actually happened last night in a commander game with friends and we weren't entirely sure we got all the interactions correct so I thought I'd ask here: I played Genesis Wave for a total cmc of 9 mana, so I revealed the top 6 cards of my library which were Master Biomancer , Corpsejack Menace , Fathom Mage , Doubling Season , Hardened Scales and Plaxcaster Frogling in that order ... My friends and I were completely horrified by what I'd just done. In trying to figure the situation out we broke it down something like this: we immediately set Master Biomancer to the side and said everything else would ETB with two +1/+1 counters already on themselves, I knew specifically that Corpsejack Menace 's ability doesnt work on itself when Master Biomancer enters at the same time and thus assumed the same would be true for Doubling Season and Hardened Scales so we didn't worry about doubling anything or adding +1s. Then it got tricky. When Fathom Mage entered we figured it gained two counters from Master Biomancer and thus entered as a 3/3 on its own. Fathom Mage then "saw" Master Biomancer enter alongside it as a 2/4, evolved into a 4/4, then saw Plaxcaster Frogling enter as a 5/5, (three +1/+1 counters from its own graft and two from MB) evolved into a 5/5 itself, then saw Corpsejack Menace enter as a 6/6 then evolved into a 6/6 itself, so i drew a total of 5 cards and didnt even think about trying to graft anything with Plaxcaster Frogling just to avoid further confusion. I felt we had resolved it correctly but I wanted to confirm that we got it right. So my first two questions are: 1. Did we? and if not how should it have resolved? and 2. Could I have grafted a +1/+1 counter from plaxcaster onto something else in that instance? for sake of explanation my graft target would have been Corpsejack Menace if it was at all possible. My last question has to do with my next turn. I played Cytoplast Manipulator with everything else still on the field. It entered with two +1+1 counters of its own, doubled to four by Corpsejack Menace then to eight by Doubling Season then received one counter from Hardened Scales doubled to 2 and then 4 respectively for that interaction, then I grafted another counter onto it from Plaxcaster Frogling which double doubled to four and then it received another counter from Hardened Scales which double doubled to 4 for that interaction resulting in twenty total counters being placed on it, causing Fathom Mage to evolve once more into a 7/7. So my last question is: Did I resolve playing Cytoplast Manipulator correctly and should it have entered as a 20/20?

Gidgetimer says... #1

You could have grafted any number of the creatures, and for the evolve and graft triggers Hardened Scales and Doubling Season are in effect.

You are for the most part right about Cytoplast Manipulator, though Hardened Scales is a replacement effect, not a trigger so the exact proper way to explain it is: Cytoplast Manipulator entered with two plus one is three, doubled to six, doubled to twelve counters on it; and then one plus one is two, doubled to four, doubled to eight counters were grafted onto it.

August 16, 2017 7:25 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #2

Forgot to list Corpsejack Menace is in effect for the evolve and graft triggers. For optimal play you would have stacked the triggers so that they resolved:

Evolve from Plaxcaster making Fathom Mage 11/11

Graft onto Master Biomancer making him 10/12

Evolve from Biomancer making Fathom Mage 19/19

Graft onto Corpsejack Menace making it 14/14

Evolve from menace is not going to resolve because he is too small for the intervening if clause to allow it to.

Graft onto Fathom Mage making it a 27/27.

It seems that both you in your OP and I forgot biomancer on your Cytoplast Manipulator so that is another 8 counters on the manipulator in your op and another 40 in this optimal case. So Manipulator optimal case now is enters with 12+1 doubled doubled to 52 counters on it and then grafts for 1+1 doubled doubled to 8 for a total of 60 power. It also triggers evolve for 8 total counters on Fathom Mage when it enters as the 52/52.

August 16, 2017 7:42 p.m.

Kinkybobo says... #3

ah so I did! was so focused on manipulator I didnt even pay attention to the last evolve on fathom mage in my scenario or that master biomancer was in play. Hmmm thank you so much though, I didnt know how graft and evolve resolved alongside everything else in this case, your answer has been incredibly helpful! I really appreciate it! its insane how out of control +1/+1 counters can get.

August 16, 2017 8:38 p.m.

Neotrup says... #4

I'm confused, why did you put counters on for Master Biomancer? It wasn't on the battlefield yet to effect any of the creatures. Also, for handling evolve triggers, you have to apply Corpsejack Menace, Doubling Season, and Hardened Scales. You also are not applying Hardened Scales correctly, but are arriving at an acceptable result. You have to apply Hardened Scales before applying the doublers, otherwise you just add one to your doubled results.

August 17, 2017 2:23 a.m.

Gidgetimer says... #5

Good catch, for some reason I thought biomancer was a trigger when I replied.

August 17, 2017 4:29 a.m.

Kinkybobo says... #6

Master Biomancer can "see" other creatures that enter the battlefield at the same time that he does. He doesn't have to be on the battlefield first for the other creatures to benefit from his effect.

August 17, 2017 10:35 p.m.

Kinkybobo says... #7

Oh! wait, scratch that, no it cant, it seems biomancer's ability is a replacement effect, not a trigger, I made the same mistake! good catch indeed!

August 17, 2017 10:53 p.m.

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