Mana Abilities with Negative Toughness
Asked by KablamoBoom 8 years ago
So I play a lot of Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker EDH and as it turns out he's a handful and a half as far as rules go. I love it. But here's one thing I've been having trouble with, delving into two power Shirei (yes...yes I know...). The main card in question is Workhorse. Note that Shirei only cares about net actual power of the creature as it dies. If I block with Workhorse and don't use his ability, he dies with 4 power and dies permanently.
So...in two power Shirei, there's some weird shtuff that arises, like what happens if you Skullclamp a 1/2 with Night of Souls' Betrayal on the field. It is 0/1, becomes 1/0, dies after Skullclamp resolves as a state based action, before I get priority. But mana abilities (Workhorse) don't use the stack. Rule 605.3a states: A player may activate an activated mana ability whenever he or she has priority, whenever he or she is casting a spell or activating an ability that requires a mana payment, or whenever a rule or effect asks for a mana payment, even if its in the middle of casting or resolving a spell or activating or resolving an ability.
So normally (let's say it's my main phase, nothing on the stack), if I have a Night of Souls' Betrayal out and I pop off three counters for 
, can I pop off the last counter despite him having zero toughness? I had priority, used a mana ability, I still have priority, right? State based actions should wait until after I relinquish priority.
If not...it says mana abilities can be used when activating a spell or ability with a mana payment. So if I remove three counters, Skullclamp Workhorse, can I pay for the equip effect with the last counter, or will he just die with 2/0? Bonus question...if I have four counters on him, and I'm activating a spell or ability that requires 
, how many times can I use his ability to pay for it? Just once, or as many times as I deem necessary?
Using mana-abilities is step four on casting a spell or playing an ability. That is the only point where you could get four mana of a Workhorse with Night of Souls' Betrayal on the battlefield. Usually players shortcut this by playing mana abilities before they do anything so for the sake of clear communications I would declare clearly when you are doing and what.
You could do it by declaring that you equip Skullclamp on the horse and then take all the four counters away from the horse. Workhorse is a legal target for skullclamps equip ability but when the ability becomes played the horse will die due to SBAs and the equip will fizzle when it tries to resolve.
November 19, 2015 1:46 a.m.
KablamoBoom says... #3
Awww phooey. I spaced on that being a part of the cast and on resolution it fails. Well, thanks for the crazy rules help!
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #1
Players lose priority when someone begins casting a spell or activating an ability and then regain it afterward, which means SBAs check between activations and casts.
This means you can't activate Workhorse's mana ability a fourth time with Night of Souls' Betrayal out. Nor can you attempt to equip Skullclamp to a creature with 0 toughness; the creature dies as a state-based action before you get priority.
You should be able to activate the mana ability multiple times while casting a spell or activating an ability.
November 18, 2015 6:40 p.m.