Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Thragtusk makes a token, when it dies I still get the 3/3 right?
Asked by nickiru 8 years ago
Here's my interpretation of the rules and then I will show the rules I was looking at:
I interpret them as contrary. The first rule sounds like they enter the graveyard, as pertaining to this scenario, and then the token disappears 'after' in changes so that... '''''if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.'''''
but then the second rule says they don't change zones: '''''it remains in its current zone instead. It ceases to exist the next time state-based actions are checked; see rule 704. '''''
So which one is it? Do I still get my 3/3 token when Thragtusk token leaves the battlefield if it is considered to leave at all?
this question also applys to critters like Wurmcoil Engine. Is it considered to die? Or other things that expolicitly say ''enter the graveyard'' triggers.
The rules are:
110.5f A token thats phased out, or thats in a zone other than the battlefield, ceases to exist. This is a state-based action; see rule 704. (Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.)110.5g A token that has left the battlefield cant move to another zone or come back onto the battlefield. If such a token would change zones, it remains in its current zone instead. It ceases to exist the next time state-based actions are checked; see rule 704.
Thanks in advance! I know that's a lot.
Yes, you still get a token.
Rule 110.5g refers to cases where a token has already left the battlefield and then would change zones again before it ceases to exist as a SBA. This applies to cases like casting Cloudshift on a token. If 110.5g didn't exist the token would reenter the battlefield since SBAs don't check in middle of a spell resolving.
January 13, 2016 12:50 p.m.
Note that 110.5g refers to a token that has left left the battlefield meaning it applies only to tokens that aren't on the battlefield anymore.
The such a token only refers to tokens that already left the battlefield as well.
January 13, 2016 12:55 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... Accepted answer #5
Whenever a token of a creature dies (Definition: Moves from the battlefield to the graveyard) or leaves the battlefield (referencing Thragtusk), any triggered abilities that have conditions which are met will trigger, including triggers on the token itself: Thragtusk, Wurmcoil Engine, Shadows of the Past, Dark Prophecy, Vela the Night-Clad.
Whenever a player would receive priority, state based actions (SBA) are always checked, and one of the conditions for SBA's is seeing if a token is anywhere other than the battlefield.
704.5d If a token is phased out, or is in a zone other than the battlefield, it ceases to exist
However, this happens after any triggered abilities trigger, but the abilities don't go on to the stack until after SBA's are checked and the game confirms no more SBA's need to occur.
You will get the 3/3 token from Thragtusk, and you would get both the 3/3 tokens from Wurmcoil Engine.
Note:
Phasing does not cause anything to "change zones", it merely "Ceases to exist while still being on the battlefield". The phased permanent will not cause any enter the battlefield or leaves the battlefield triggers. If a token is phased out, it just permanently ceases to exist.
Tidbit:
If a token is phased out while being equipped with equipment, the equipment will not phase back in as the object with which they were indirectly phased out with no longer exists.
January 13, 2016 3:43 p.m.
WOW, awesome guys! thanks.
Now the rules don't seem contrary to themselves. This makes sense.
Cool, so I can kiki copy thrag and even if they instant removal kiki, I can still get my thrag token, gain 5 life, and then sac it for a 3/3.
among other combos too.
Thanks!!!
nickiru says... #1
The rules just seem hyper contrary:
"A token that has left the battlefield cant move to another zone or come back onto the battlefield."
is contrary to
"If such a token would change zones, it remains in its current zone instead."
and
"A token thats phased out, or thats in a zone other than the battlefield, ceases to exist."
to
"Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist."
The last "note" is the only basis that just simply says, screw what we said or the interaction, the abilities trigger anyways:
which would include all, leave battlefield, enter graveyard, dies, etc...
what do you guys say? what would a grand prix judge say? I'm gearing up for this and I want my deck to run according to rules.
Thanks.
January 13, 2016 12:46 p.m.