Indestructibility Rules Question
Asked by RiotRunner789 1 year ago
Does an effect like Hour of Devastation that removes indestructibility work on something with an indestructibility counter (such as Solphim, Mayhem Dominus)?
I know an effect like Humility wouldn't effect +1/+1 counters but I do not think it works the same for effects that remove indestructibility.
Am I wrong? Does anyone know exactly how this would work?
Hour of Devastation will kill a creature with an indestructibility counter.
When Solphim gets the indestructibility counter, he gets indestructible as well due to these rules.
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122.1b: "A keyword counter on a permanent or on a card in a zone other than the battlefield causes that object to gain that keyword...See rule 613.1f"
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613.1f: "Layer 6: Ability-adding effects, keyword counters, ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an ability are applied."
Solphim's counter also gets a timestamp (This gets into what TypicalTimmy mentioned with timestamps)
- 613.7c: "Each counter receives a timestamp as it’s put on an object or player. If that object or player already has a counter of that kind on it, each counter of that kind receives a new timestamp identical to that of the new counter."
When Hour of Devastation resolves, removing indestructible also gets a timestamp
- 613.7b: "A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability receives a timestamp at the time it’s created."
Now we have two different sources trying to do things in the same layer; a keyword counter, and an ability-removing effect.
- 613.1f: "Layer 6: Ability-adding effects, keyword counters, ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an ability are applied."
Since we have two different effects trying to apply in the same layer, we go to this rule
- 613.7: "Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is usually done using a timestamp system. An effect with an earlier timestamp is applied before an effect with a later timestamp."
We have two timestamps. Since Solphims is first, we apply it first (Solphim is Indestructible). Since Hour is second, we apply it second (Solphim is Not Indestructible). Now that we've applied all effects, we can look at the creature. The last effect we applied was "Not Indestructible", so Solphim is not indestructible.
Same idea with Humility,except there's this rule too
- 613.7a: "A continuous effect generated by a static ability has the same timestamp as the object the static ability is on, or the timestamp of the effect that created the ability, whichever is later."
If Solphim is indestructible, but then Humility resolves, he'll lose all abilities (because Humility's effect has a later timestamp).
If Humility is out, and then Solphim gets an indestructible counter (Maybe The Ozolith had one) he will be indestructible because the indestructible counter has a later timestamp than Humility.
March 11, 2023 1:58 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #3
Now my question comes in the form of priority.
Suppose Solphim does not yet have an indestructible counter on it. Hour is cast. The active player passes priority and in response the controller of Solphim pays the costs to put the counter on.
Now Hour resolves, sees indestructible and removes the keyword (not the counter), then deals the 5 damage which kills Solphim, correct?
March 11, 2023 2:58 p.m.
TypicalTimmy Solphim will still die.
Hour's ability removing timestamp is only applied upon resolution, so Solphim would gain the counter (creating a timestamp), and then lose indestructible (due to Hour's still later one) and die.
- "613.7b: "A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability receives a timestamp at the time it’s created."
March 11, 2023 5:54 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #5
"It is unclear if removing the counter subsequently removes the keyword."
I didn't see this directly addressed in Delphin's response, but this statement is false. As 122.1b states the counter grants the keyword ability, therefore without the counter (and unless something else is granting the keyword) the permanent doesn't have that keyword.
Also, there is a rules Q&A section where you can ask rules questions. The rules Q&A has some added functionality like the ability to choose an answer and is frequented by users knowledgeable in the rules who may miss a post in the forums.
March 11, 2023 9:50 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #6
RiotRunner789: To make sure you're aware, this topic has been converted into a question in the "Rules Q&A" section of the site. If one of the responses is a satisfactory answer to your question, you can mark it as the "Accepted answer" using the "Mark as Answer" button on that particular post. If you still need more clarification then feel free to respond in this thread with any follow-up questions you have about it.
March 13, 2023 5:23 p.m.
RiotRunner789 says... #7
I believe Delphen7 hit the nail on the head. I just was thinking keyword counters could act similarly or the same as +1/+1 counters when it came to Humility for example (they don't).
Reframing the answer: HOD removes all sources of indestructible, no matter there source when it resolves even if the keyword came from a counter or equipment.
TypicalTimmy says... #1
The counter is a marker to help signify and indicate the keyword is applied, but the counter is also what the keyword is actually tied to.
A quick Google search shows that when a keyword counter is placed upon a permanent, that permanent gains the associated keyword.
It is unclear if removing the counter subsequently removes the keyword.
But for your question, yes. The creature gains indestructible, so it can lose indestructible.
Several websites ask the players to refer to the "timestamp" of the counter, which was the earliest moment the counter was applied, to determine effects. For example, if you cast the spell to remove indestructible, then a counter is put onto something, it'll gain it because the counter was applied after the spell resolved.
March 11, 2023 11:15 a.m.