I need some clarity... strive, additional costs, total spell cost...
Asked by CamraMaan 2 years ago
At the heart of my issue/question is whether strive costs are included in a spell's casting cost. I know kicker costs are additional, and therefore not included. And as I read the definition, any additional costs will have the word "additional" in the text. But strive doesn't say additional. On the Gather site, the current definition of strive is "This spell costs X more to cast for each target beyond the first" and clearly does not say "additional", or an example card like Kiora's Dismissal. By the wording of strive, it would be easy to assume the spell's casting cost is affected by these "additional" costs, which matters if something is checking the spell's cost. I understand strive is thought to operate as an additional cost like kicker, but...... it doesn't say additional cost, which is part of the definition of an additional cost. And it's obviously not an alternative cost, so..... help?
Thanks in advance! :)
Another wording difference to note... kicker says "you may" pay the additional cost, which strive does not say... the wording of strive appears to make it directly affect the spell's cost. IMHO.
April 18, 2022 3:50 a.m.
Sorry to post again, but I think what I'm trying to say is that strive is worded as a spell modifier, where kicker is worded as an additional effect, or often as a replacement effect.
April 18, 2022 4:07 a.m.
Don't hate me... I just noticed every strive spell says "any number" as part of it's initial targeting, which is why it shouldn't be an additional effect or cost... it's a part of the original effect, the initial casting and targeting of the spell. Therefore the total spell cost, which has simply been modified and expanded, should include it. IMHO. This matters if, say, Deekah, Fractal Theorist is in play.
April 18, 2022 4:17 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #5
It wasn't clear exactly what you were asking until you brought up Deekah, Fractal Theorist as an example of why you needed to know. A card's "mana value" is specifically the sum of the mana symbols printed in the upper-right corner of a standard Magic frame. If there's an in the cost and the spell is currently on the stack, then the chosen value of X is counted as well. Nothing else that would increase, reduce, or otherwise change the total cost required to cast a spell has any effect on the mana value. The only way to change the mana value of a card is to turn it into a copy of another card with a different mana value.
April 18, 2022 8:57 a.m. Edited.
Strive is an additional cost. It's just templated the way it is to avoid "Strive N.//This spell deals 2 damage to any target plus another target for each time its strive cost was paid." You won't find this in the comprehensive rules because strive is an ability word, not a keyword, which means it ties a bunch of similar abilities together but "strive" itself doesn't have inherent rules meaning. However, you will find it in the rulings on any strive spell.
April 18, 2022 9:04 a.m.
Appreciated! Another reason I was curious about the ruling is regarding the interaction with Hinata, Dawn-Crowned, and whether Hinata might reduce the cost of strive spells on a per target basis.
April 18, 2022 3:06 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #8
Just to make sure we're on the same page: yes, Hinata, Dawn-Crowned works great with Strive spells as long as they have a generic component in the cost. It can't reduce the cost of Kiora's Dismissal or Blinding Flare, but will work fine with something like Hour of Need, Phalanx Formation, etc.
April 18, 2022 4:44 p.m.
I thought it should, but I was under the impression Hinata won't reduce the additional cost of a spell, like kicker/multikicker costs, which I've been told strive operates the same as. Does Hinata reduce the generic additional costs of both strive and kicker spells...?
April 20, 2022 12:56 a.m.
Like we'll use Marshal's Anthem as a multikicker example... does Hinata reduce its kicker cost per target...?
April 20, 2022 1:06 a.m.
Marshal's Anthem isn't a good example because the spell doesn't target. It's an enchantment with an ETB trigger that targets. Same with Quarantine Field, even though it's an X spell.
The multikicker spells Hinata can help with are things like Comet Storm. The last steps in casting a spell are determining its cost and then paying that cost, so you'll pick a value for X, choose how many times you'll be kicking it, select all the targets, then determine its cost as plus the number of times it's kicked plus any other additional costs, then subtract cost reductions (1 per target from Hinata). In practice, this means that with Hinata you will always pay minus for Comet Storm, regardless of how many times it was kicked, making the spell basically a one sided board wipe that hits players.
April 20, 2022 9:18 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #12
Marshal's Anthem isn't a good example because the spell, itself doesn't have any targets. It's the "enters the battlefield" triggered ability that has targets. Let's use Comet Storm instead.
Hinata, Dawn-Crowned doesn't reduce kicker costs, but it does work with kicker cards like this because it reduces the total cost to cast the spell. The total cost to cast a spell is the base mana cost (or an alternative cost that's replacing the mana cost), plus any mandatory or optional additional costs (kicker is an optional additional cost), plus any cost-increasing effects (Sphere of Resistance, etc.), minus any cost-reducing effects (Hinata, etc.), and then applying effects that set it to a specific amount (right now Trinisphere is the only effect that does this).
So let's say you cast Comet Storm with X=4 and kicked 3 times because you want to have 4 targets. The total cost is then (base) + (kicker) - (Hinata) =
April 20, 2022 9:55 a.m.
I missed that Marshal's Anthem was an ETB trigger... I already know those won't trigger Hinata. But I didn't know that additional costs were covered in the spells total cost... I was still under the impression it was only what is printed in the corner, adjusted by the paid value of an X cost. That's good to know. I appreciate the responses and help! :)
CamraMaan says... #1
Or are strive and kicker meant to operate slightly different...?
April 18, 2022 3:48 a.m.