How does Doubling season and hardened scales interact

Asked by Monomanamaniac 6 years ago

I don't even know how these two cards would interact. If I placed a Forced Adaptation on a creature when Doubling Season + Hardened Scales were in play, how many +1/+1 counters would it get every turn

TheVectornaut says... #1

Both Hardened Scales and Doubling Season are triggering simultaneously when Forced Adaptation tries to put a +1/+1 counter on the enchanted creature (you control). You get to choose how those triggers are placed on the stack.

"603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities he or she controls on the stack in any order he or she chooses. [...]"

If you put the Hardened Scales trigger on the stack first, Doubling Season's trigger will resolve first. 1 counter will be doubled to 2, and 1 more added on will yield a total of 3.

If you put the Doubling Season trigger on the stack first, Hardened Scales's trigger will resolve first. 1 counter will be added to 1 to get 2, and 2 will be doubled to yield a total of 4.

October 22, 2017 10:37 a.m.

Neotrup says... Accepted answer #2

Hardened Scales and Doubling Season have replacement effects. They do not trigger, go on the stack, or resolve. Rather, When you attempt to put a +1/+1 counter on a creature you control, you (as the player whose permanent is being effected) choose an applicable replacement effect to apply. If you choose Hardened Scales you'll now need be putting two +1/+1 counters on a creature you control and will need to choose an applicable replacement effect. Doubling Season is the only applicable effect, so you'll apply it and be putting four +1/+1 counters on it. There won't be any applicable replacement effects you haven't applied, so you'll now take the modified action, which is putting those four counters on the creature. If you choose to apply the effects in the other order, the end result will be putting three +1/+1 counters on instead.

October 22, 2017 11:46 a.m.

Monomanamaniac says... #3

Alright. I was hoping it could yield 4 counters instead of just 3

October 22, 2017 1:20 p.m.

Neotrup says... #4

It can, the choice is yours. The results mostly match what TheVectornaut said, I'm mostly just trying to clarify that these aren't triggers and don't use the stack (so the don't resolve in top down order). You can still apply them in either order. If they were triggers you'd get infinite counters, but the stack would never finish resolving so the game would be a draw.

October 22, 2017 1:32 p.m.

TheVectornaut says... #5

Thanks for the update, I should have looked at the wording of the cards more closely. Here are some more relevant rules:

"614.1a Effects that use the word instead are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word instead to indicate what events will be replaced with other events." Both enchantments use this syntax.

"614.5. A replacement effect doesnt invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace it." This is what prevents the infinite loop.

The result is still 3 or 4 counters, depending on how you apply the replacement effects.

October 22, 2017 1:50 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... #6

If you need no further clarification please select an answer to remove this from the unanswered queue. Otherwise let us know what you are still unclear on.

October 22, 2017 3:49 p.m.

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