Horde of Notions vs Teferi Mage of Zhalfir
Asked by zelian12 8 years ago
As I understand it, Horde of Notions ability works like this: you activate it targeting an elemental in your graveyard. Then you cast (I'm assuming "play" is shorthand for cast) that elemental without paying its mana cost.
Can I flash in Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir with Horde of Notions ability on the stack to prevent the elemental from being "played?" Or if I'm wrong about how Horde works, can I just have Teferi out?
I've asked two judges at my LGS about this and got two different answers. Thanks in advance for the help.
Ok but what if I cast it before Horde's ability resolves? so the casting of the elemental hasn't happened yet...or when you activate his ability does it automatically put the creature on the stack?
October 22, 2015 2:48 p.m.
They won't be able to choose to cast the target of the ability.
Horde of Notions allows you to cast the spell during the resolution of the abilitiy. Teferi allows casting only during times one could cast a sorcery (your turn, main phase, stack is empty)
Since can't always trumps can, the ability forbidding you from casting spells except when it is your turn, in a main phase, with an empty stack trumps the one letting you cast the spell during the resolution of Horde's ability, you can't cast the spell.
October 22, 2015 2:55 p.m.
Hootiequack says... #4
I'm not entirely familiar with Horde of Notions, but it would seem that the ability would effectively "cast" the elemental. The only way Teferi would affect that is if he's already on the field before the ability is used. In that case, it just means the ability can only be played at sorcery speed.
October 22, 2015 2:56 p.m.
The ability can be activated any time you could play an instant, Hootiequack, and then the resolution of the ability just gives you the ability to cast the spell for the alternate cost of free. You are still casting it, subject to all the other rules of casting spells. Otherwise it would say "Put an elemental creature from your graveyard onto the battlefield"
October 22, 2015 2:58 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
Abilities don't do anything until they resolve. You don't just cast the elemental as soon as you activate Horde of Notions's ability. It only happens during the resolution of that ability, and because the ability is still on the stack as it is resolving, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir's ability won't let you cast the elemental.
October 22, 2015 2:59 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #8
I'm confused here. If he activates the Horde of Notions' ability during his main phase, on an empty stack, wouldn't that be casting at sorcery speed? The OP didn't mention who's turn it was or what phase this was being done in, so I question the legality of the move. I mean, unless I'm missing something here
October 22, 2015 5:01 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
Reread post #7.
The spell is cast during the resolution of the ability, which means the ability is still on the stack at that time. That's not sorcery speed.
October 22, 2015 5:32 p.m.
Hootiequack says... #10
Okay, so just to clarify, because Teferi's ability only allows spells to be cast by an opponent during their own main phase while nothing else is on the stack, and the fact that the ability of the Horde requires two actions on the stack (the ability, then the playing of the target elemental), the ability would not work. Is that correct? Again, I'm unfamiliar with the Horde and it's abilities, so just wanting to log this in the ol' memory bank for future reference.
October 22, 2015 5:34 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
Again, the spell must be cast while the ability is resolving. The ability does not create an effect that allows you to cast the spell over a period of time, so you must cast it immediately.
Additionally, a spell or ability is removed from the stack as the last step in the resolution process. Therefore, at the point at which you're instructed to cast the target card, the ability is still on the stack. Because there's an object on the stack, it's not a time at which any player could cast a sorcery, regardless of whose turn it is or what phase it is.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir's ability will prevent its controller's opponent from casting any Elemental using Horde of Notions's ability.
The same principle drives the Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir + Knowledge Pool combo.
October 22, 2015 5:39 p.m.
Hootiequack says... #12
Alright, thanks. I usually refrain from answering these just because there's plenty of people who know more than me. While I'm familiar with Teferi, in this case I just failed to realize the multiple uses of the stack by the Horde. I should've just left it to the experts, ha
October 22, 2015 5:46 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #13
Ah alright I see. I didn't know the ability was still on the stack when you cast the creature, so that's what my confusion was about.
Hootiequack says... #1
The way I've understood Teferi to work, he only stops spells from being put on the stack except at sorcery speed. After something is on the stack, flashing him in would do nothing as it had already been cast. Anything on the stack already would resolve normally.
October 22, 2015 2:45 p.m.