Hex vs Noggin Whack - how they differ?

Asked by brcap 8 years ago

Can anyone explain a general ruling on why Hex requires 6 creatures to target, but Noggin Whack does not require a minimum 3 cards in hand to use?

By general ruling, i mean something to the effect of "Effects that use the word "instead" are replacement effects.".. for example. Or otherwise put; how would I know this without specifically looking it up?

Note: I'm not asking why Noggin Whack and Hex do the things they do (though i do think its bananas that hex wont let you target the same creature multiple times) - my question centers around the unconditional phrasing of both cards (ie. kill 6 things / show me 3 cards), while only Noggin Whack's ruling goes on to add "or don't...whatever" .

Thanks Ya'll.

TheRedMage says... #1

Hex is targeting those creatures. The spell instructs you to "Destroy six target creatures" and as such needs six different targets to work.

Noggin Whack targets an opponent. As long as your opponent is a legal target they will have to do what the spell says to the best of their abilities, including revealing/discarding whatever they have if they have less than three cards. If the cards in his hands were the targets of the spell, you would not be able to cast Noggin Whack unless three were present, but, since the opponent is the target instead, you don't need to obey that restriction.

July 17, 2015 1:56 p.m.

TheRedMage says... #2

Basically when you cast a spell the only thing that the spell requires is that it has an appropriate number of targets, and that they are legal - "target" here being the operative word. The spell doesn't check if those targets are able to comply until the spell is resolving.

For Hex, the required targets are "six target creatures". Because the way that the rules work, that is shorthand for "six different target creatures (provided that none of them has targeting restrictions i.e Hexproof, Protection from Black...)".

For Noggin Whack, the required targets are "Target Player". Noggin Whack doesn't care about the cards in that player's hand, because the cards themselves are not being targeted - the player is.

July 17, 2015 2:08 p.m.

brcap says... #3

I fully get that one targets 6 creatures, and one targets a player, but the question centers on the fact that the "3 card" portion of the text appears to be another restriction, which in this case is ignored.

Other cards specify lack of conditionality, like Mind Twist, where most printings read "If that player does not have enough cards, his or her entire hand is discarded"

July 17, 2015 2:28 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #4

As was explained above, targeting is the reason this happens. If a spell or ability targets something, you must name a legal target for it, and that target must be legal on resolution in order for specific effects to be performed on it.

Noggin Whack targets only a player, so the restriction is fulfilled by targeting your opponent. When a spell or ability resolves, you execute its effects to the extent possible. Noggin Whack doesn't require that exactly three cards be revealed or that the target opponent has three cards in hand. That bit is not a restriction on the casting process.

Mind Twist is kind of a misleading example because its printings were all from Fourth edition and earlier. Old cards had wording quirks like this that are now addressed sufficiently by the game's rules and are thus left out of text boxes.

July 17, 2015 2:44 p.m.

Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #5

That extra text on certain printings of Mind Twist, Hymn to Tourach, etc. isn't functional rules text. It's basically an early version of "reminder text" that gives you a little more detail on how the effect works within the rules of the game. The cards work exactly the same way without it (and notice the current Oracle text for those cards doesn't include it).

Revealing 3 cards from Noggin Whack's effect isn't a restriction. It's just an instruction. If a resolving spell or ability gives an instruction that's impossible to completely carry out, you do as much as you can and move on.

The relevant rule from the CR (including its example):
609.3. If an effect attempts to do something impossible, it does only as much as possible.
Example: If a player is holding only one card, an effect that reads "Discard two cards" causes him or her to discard only that card. If an effect moves cards out of the library (as opposed to drawing), it moves as many as possible.

This is different from the rules regarding targeting requirements, as for Hex:
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect ... If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal
601.2c The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires...

July 17, 2015 2:47 p.m.

Named_Tawyny says... #6

If it makes it any easier for you, think of Noggin Whack like Lava Axe.

In both cases, you're targeting a player, that's all.

Just as Lava Axe doesn't care that your opponent only has two life left, neither does Noggin Whack care that your opponent only has two cards in hand.

July 17, 2015 3:05 p.m.

Drilnoth says... #7

Please remember to select an answer to remove this question from the unanswered queue.

July 18, 2015 7:06 p.m.

brcap says... #8

Thanks everyone,

Rhadamanthus, rule 609.3 was exactly what I was looking for.

Sorry for the delay in selecting an answer, I tend only to be on the site on weekdays, when I need a break at work.

Cheers.

July 20, 2015 9:51 a.m.

This discussion has been closed