Hardened Scales with Multiple Sources of +1/+1
Asked by Jastorm 7 years ago
I'm tempted to get Hardened Scales but I'm wondering how the ruling for it will work in the instance I'm thinking. Does Hardened scales give an extra +1/+1 for each source of counters or just overall
Example: I Have Ezuri, Claw of Progress and Murkfiend Liege on the board. If I then flip Thelonite Hermit which will give me 4 1/1 Saprolings. These saprolings will get a +1/+1 from Thelonite Hermit, and a +1/+1 from Murkfiend Liege. Then I buff one with Ezuri at the start of battle for 5 +1/+1 counters.
Does Hardened Scales give a +1/+1 extra for the hermit's Buff, and Liege's buff and Ezuri's Buff? Making the 1/1 go to 11/11 and the other three are all 5/5?
If I'm wrong how does the math work?
Hardened Scales has a replacement effect for whenever an event would put one or more +1/+1 counters on a creature you control. If the event is replaced, it's replaced with an event that puts on that many +1/+1 counters plus an additional one.
You seem to be confusing static +1/+1 buffs and +1/+1 counters, however. Thelonite Hermit and Murkfiend Liege just give a static +1/+1 to the saprolings, which is different than what Ezuri, Claw of Progress does. Ezuri actually puts +1/+1 counters on a creature, which is an event that Hardened Scales will replace. If you have 5 experience counters, Ezuri will try to put 5 +1/+1 counters on a creature and Hardened Scales will replace it with an event that puts on that many plus 1, so 6 +1/+1 counters.
So overall, the Saprolings will all have +1/+1 from both Thelonite Hermit and Murkfiend Liege, and one will have 6 +1/+1 counters on it giving you a 9/9 Saproling and 3 3/3 Saprolings.
May 31, 2016 6:03 p.m.
Thank you for the answers. That is interesting, also I didn't realize static abilities would also cancel out Ezuri's first ability too. That is good to know as I may not want them. I thought These would take place after the creature entered the battlefield so ezuri would get his experience counters and THEN they would get the +1/+1 from the static ability
May 31, 2016 6:08 p.m.
hyperlocke says... #4
There is an important distinction between a static +1/+1 buff, like Murkfiend Liege and Thelonite Hermit give, and +1/+1 counters, like those from Ezuri, Claw of Progress.
The static buff is an ability of the card. If the card granting it leaves the battlefield, your creatures won't get +1/+1 anymore. Counters are physical objects placed on a creature (or other permanents). In most cases they are represented by dice. These counters are independent of the effect that granted them.
Hardened Scales adds one extra counter, whenever one or more would be placed on a creature. In your scenario, only Ezuri gives counters.
The saprolings are green 1/1 creatures. They get +1/+1 from the Hermit, and +1/+1 from the Liege, putting them at 3/3. These buffs are static abilities of the Hermit and the Liege. If they leave, your saprolings will be 1/1's again.
At the beginning of your combat, Ezuri triggers and tries to put 5 counters on a saproling. Hardened Scales replaces this with putting 6 counters on it.
So one saproling will be a 3/3 with 6 +1/+1 counters, making it a 9/9, while the other saprolings are 3/3.
May 31, 2016 6:13 p.m.
hyperlocke says... #5
And as always, Epoch is the first to answer, and gives a very detailed answer, and also catches the mistake I completely overlooked...
May 31, 2016 6:16 p.m.
Thank you for the detailed explanations. Definitely changes my approach to my deck with a few items. :-)
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #1
First, an effect only involves counters if it specifically uses the word "counter(s)." Neither Murkfiend Liege or Thelonite Hermit involve counters. They have no interaction with Hardened Scales.
Ezuri, Claw of Progress, on the other hand, puts counters on a target creature. If you control Hardened Scales as Ezuri, Claw of Progress's ability is resolving, you'll put an additional counter on that creature.
Your situation plays out like this:
May 31, 2016 6:03 p.m.