Fires of Invention and Herald of the Pantheon and Matter Reshaper
Asked by 9-lives 3 years ago
If I used Herald of the Pantheon and make my enchantments one generic mana cheaper, does that count as cheaper CMC for Fires of Invention? Or is that wrong and Fires of Invention just uses the default CMC without modifiers? Also, if I use Herald of the Pantheon, will I be able to use Matter Reshaper when it dies for a 4 CMC enchantment when it is beforehand reduced to 3 mana by Herald of the Pantheon?
So, in other words, modifiers that reduce the total cost of the spell isn't applicable to CMC? So, it's just what's on the card itself and not modifiers that are on the stack? It says 'minus all cost reductions', but it says 'plus all additional costs and cost increases' so they basically skewed the game and made it harder for people to use this tactic? But why does +cost work for CMC, but yet -cost doesn't? Just because they say so in the rules?
October 29, 2020 11:59 a.m.
But 601.2f isn't about CMC is it? Because it says it takes into account the cost reductions, but then it says 'minus all cost reductions.' So what the heck does that mean?
October 29, 2020 12:02 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
The example of 601.2f given above is a bit of a distraction. I assume it was meant to show how cost increasing/reducing effects impact the total cost to cast a spell, but it doesn't have anything to do with CMC. As shown in the example of 202.3, CMC is strictly the sum of the symbols in the printed mana cost. Herald of the Pantheon doesn't have any interaction with the abilities of Fires of Invention or Matter Reshaper.
Note that is considered zero at all times except when the spell is currently being cast and on the stack, in which case it takes whatever value was chosen for it. For example: Blaze in your hand or in the graveyard has CMC = 1. If it's on the stack as a spell with X = 5, then it has CMC = 6.
October 29, 2020 2:24 p.m. Edited.
veritablecvn says... #5
Correct, I was trying to show the difference between CMC and the total cost to cast a spell. I'm sorry for the added confusion.
veritablecvn says... Accepted answer #1
The CMC of a card does not change if there are effects that alter how much mana is required to pay to cast the spell. Fires of Invention and Matter Reshaper care about the CMC, not the total cost of the spell. Below I have added the two sections of the comprehensive rules that I used for my response. Hope this helps!
202.3. The converted mana cost of an object is a number equal to the total amount of mana in its mana cost, regardless of color. Example: A mana cost of {3}{U}{U} translates to a converted mana cost of 5.
601.2f The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If multiple cost reductions apply, the player may apply them in any order. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can’t be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes “locked in.” If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
October 29, 2020 11:39 a.m.