Does Natural Order work with False Prophet?
Asked by CommanderFun 9 years ago
If I have a False Prophet in play and I sacrifice him to Natural Order will all creatures be exiled before the new creature comes into play or would the new creature be exiled with the rest of them?
In other words, would False Prophet 's effect resolve before Natural Order 's so that I can get Progenitus or something with no other creatures in his way? My fear is that False Prophet 's effect would enter the stack before Natural Order 's effect, causing the new creature to enter the BF before the profit's effect resolves; leaving it to become exiled as well.
FancyTuesday says... #2
Well, you have to sacrifice a green creature to Natural Order , so False Prophet is not a valid target unless something is changing his color.
Assuming something is changing his color, your fear is correct. False Prophet dies and his ability triggers as part of the casting cost of Natural Order, but it's not put on the stack until after Natural Order has resolved, he is in the graveyard, and the new creature is on the battlefield.
116.2a Triggered abilities can trigger at any time, including while a spell is being cast, an ability is being activated, or a spell or ability is resolving. (See rule 603, Handling Triggered Abilities.) However, nothing actually happens at the time an ability triggers. Each time a player would receive priority, each ability that has triggered but hasnt yet been put on the stack is put on the stack. See rule 116.5.
July 27, 2014 5:02 p.m.
GreatSword says... #3
FancyTuesday, remember that there's a round of priority before any object on the stack resolves. False Prophet 's ability will go on the stack before Natural Order resolves.
July 27, 2014 5:10 p.m.
GreatSword says... #4
Confusion could also arise in Natural Order 's printed vs gatherer text. The printed text has you sacrifice a creature as the spell resolves. The updated Gatherer text says different:
"As an additional cost to cast Natural Order, sacrifice a green creature.
Search your library for a green creature card and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library."
July 27, 2014 5:19 p.m.
CommanderFun says... #5
Yes I forgot to mention a color change with something like Swirl the Mists changing the "green creature" text in Natural Order . Sorry for the mix-up, but thank you all for helping me sort out the way this would resolve for the sake of argument after all. I really appreciate it.
July 27, 2014 5:32 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #6
The Oracle text has me here. I was looking at it as an effect trying to take place while another effect was only partially resolved, but as something that takes place as part of the casting of the spell False Prophet's trigger goes on top of the stack.
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. ...
601.2e. The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on.
601.2g. The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable costs cant be paid.
601.2h. Once the steps described in 601.2ag are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spells controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority.
So you go to cast the spell, pay its costs which includes the sacrifice of False Prophet, priority is passed around for responses like counterspells and at this point False Prophet's trigger is put on top of the stack to resolve before Natural Order. GreatSword is correct.
July 27, 2014 6:28 p.m.
Another one of those nice little case where oracle text changes the actual functionality of the card. Nice little traps when no one remembers the oracle text (or even knows about the change) and doesn't bother to check every old card currently being played :)
GreatSword says... Accepted answer #1
Natural Order requires you to sacrifice a green creature, so this doesn't really work. But let's say you found a way to make him green somehow, for the sake of argument.
This question has to do with the process of casting a spell and when triggered abilities go on the stack.
The first part of casting a spell is taking the spell from where it is to onto the stack so that it can resolve. So as soon as you announce you're casting Natural Order , it becomes the top-most object on the stack. Later in the process of casting it, you sacrifice False Prophet as a cost of the spell. This will trigger his ability, but won't go onto the stack until right before you have priority again (IE: after you're done casting the spell). At that point you can put False Prophet 's ability on the stack, which will make it the top-most object.
TL;DR: False Prophet 's ability resolves first. The creature you fetch with Natural Order will survive. Assuming you can make False Prophet green.
July 27, 2014 4:57 p.m.