Does Library of Leng hose Waste Not?
Asked by MindAblaze 9 years ago
From the Gatherer entry for Library of Leng :
"Since the card goes directly to the library, the card is not revealed unless the spell or ability requiring the discard specifically says it is."
"The ability replaces the normal discard action with a discard action that puts the card on the library instead of the graveyard." (emphasis is mine)
Scenario;
I control Library of Leng , you control Waste Not , and cast Windfall . I discard my hand to the top of my library...from the rulings above I don't reveal the cards, so what happens to the Waste Not trigger?
Alternatively, because its still a discard action, I understand I would still lose 2c life if it was Liliana's Caress instead of Waste Not or am I reading that wrong?
MindAblaze says... #2
But it doesn't explicitly tell you to reveal it...so according to the other rulling how does Waste Not even trigger?
July 10, 2014 3:22 p.m.
10/4/2004: The discard triggers anything else that triggers on discards.
and even though nothing says that the card type is revealed, if you discard say.. a creature to the top of your library, even if it's not revealed, it is still a creature card
There are definitely some interesting rules questions regarding hidden information affecting the game state, and whether that information can remain hidden, but the rules would still require that Waste Not 's ability triggers
July 10, 2014 3:23 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #4
...and that's what I was wondering. How does the hidden information impact the game state, I would hazard to say it doesn't, but there will have to be a ruling about this.
July 10, 2014 3:26 p.m.
It's a straight up bug in the rules, and there will probably be an errata on one of the cards for it.
The rules say that waste not triggers, and the rules also say that the card doesn't have to be revealed with library of leng.
the owner of the card can still look at it, even if it's discarded randomly, so it is still known what should happen.
10/4/2004: You can look at a randomly discarded card before deciding where it goes.
The real issue here is an issue of trust. For now, a judge would probably have to be involved in these cases.
July 10, 2014 3:28 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #6
I imagine what will happen is Library of Leng
will replace the replacement "discard action" with a different replacement effect so it just won't be considered a discard anymore.
That's what I thought it's original purpose was anyway.
As is I'm not happy with this. You can't say "oh well it's hidden information" on the one hand and then tell me "you have to tell me (something about) what you discarded so my enchantment triggers." You're right, probably just an overlooked hiccup on a community designed card. Not necessarily developed and tweaked with all interactions in mind.
July 10, 2014 3:35 p.m.
hyperlocke says... #7
Right now, Waste Not sees the discard, but not what is discarded, so none of its abilities will trigger. So yes, Library of Leng hoses Waste Not .
However, as said by others, this seems to be an overlooked interaction, so maybe the library will get errata'd. Probably something like "If an effect causes you to discard a card, reveal it and discard it, but you may put it on top of your library instead of into your graveyard."
July 10, 2014 3:48 p.m.
I imagine they'd errata Library of Leng to have a replacement effect which turns "discard a card" into "put a card from your hand onto the top of your library" since that appears to be the real intent of Library.
Also, since Library isn't legal in anything except Legacy, Vintage and Commander, and appears in 0 decks on mtgtop8, I don't think changing it to place cards on the library instead of discard to the library won't matter to anybody.
July 10, 2014 4:16 p.m.
filledelanuit says... Accepted answer #9
Library of Leng sort of hoses Waste Not . Library always causes the last ability to trigger.
701.7c If a card is discarded, but an effect causes it to be put into a hidden zone instead of into its owner’s graveyard without being revealed, all values of that card’s characteristics are considered to be undefined. If a card is discarded this way to pay a cost that specifies a characteristic about the discarded card, that cost payment is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the cost was paid (see rule 717, “Handling Illegal Actions”).
Waste Not will ask what type the card that was discarded was. The game will tell Waste Not that it doesn't have any types. Because it isn't a creature card and it isn't a land card your opponent will draw a card.
In effect Library of Leng and Waste Not makes so whenever you discard a card your opponent draws a card
July 10, 2014 4:25 p.m.
I'm not sure I'd call "You always get the best ability" to be "hoses it"
If it just said "Every time they discard a card, draw a card" it would be hugely more powerful.
July 10, 2014 4:31 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #11
@ lordoftheshadows Your logic makes sense, but is not knowing what something is the same as it not being something? I would argue no, but I can't find that assumption made in the comprehensive rules.
What got me was I was trying to test my Nekusar deck and I Windfall ed with Library of Leng out. It makes a difference for a number of different interactions, and this one came to mind.
July 10, 2014 5:36 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #12
For example, with Gifts Ungiven the reason they could print it as search your library for four cards with different names without saying up to because you have no information re:cards in a hidden zone. Every single card in the deck could have the same name as one of the cards you pulled, even if you know that would violate the 4-card maximum, because you don't assume anything about them. I realize they've changed Gifts Ungiven to make it more clear, but it doesn't change the rationale at all.
July 10, 2014 5:39 p.m.
lordoftheshadows is correct. Waste Not checks for a type. Since the type is undefined, it cannot trigger either of the first abilities. Now because it's required that you discard with Library of Leng before you put it on top of your library, you still discarded a card. Since you discarded a card, even if it doesn't have a type, it still triggers Waste Not . Imagine a card that doesn't have a supertype. You're still discarding the card, even though its supertype is non-existent. Since it's not a land, or a creature, it's a non-land, non-creature. The requirements are met, and you Waste Not draws you a card.
July 10, 2014 7:54 p.m.
Firstly, I just wanted to say how much I love this question. We don't get enough legitimately complex, multifaceted questions here, and it is nice to see them once and a while.
Just since there are so many posts on here, some of them somewhat contradictory, I want to add that lordoftheshadows is correct, and his post should be marked as such. Joking101 does a good job of explaining why the last ability of Waste Not still triggers even when the types are undefined.
July 10, 2014 8:47 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #15
It made sense when lordoftheshadows said it too. The fact that they're not defined as creatures or lands make them non-creature, non-land. I just had to play devils advocate and ask if you could say that since you don't technically know that they're not.
Sam_I_am says... #1
I checked the oracle text, and it says
It explicitly tells you to discard it. If it intended to not count as discarding, it would have told you so on the card.
The only conclusion is that it does not hose Waste Not
July 10, 2014 3:16 p.m.