Does Kicker count as part of the CMC?
Asked by vic 5 years ago
If my opponent has a Chalice of the Void in play with 2 counters, can I play a Goblin Bushwhacker with the kicker?
Gidgetimer says... #2
And I misspelled whether, didn't proofread, and can't edit. Please don't think less of me.
January 12, 2019 4:57 p.m.
Okay, so what if I have a Grand Arbiter Augustin IV on the board, and cast a Cancel for 2 blue mana? Does it work?
(My opponent still has the Chalice with 2).
January 13, 2019 7:21 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #4
Cancel 's CMC is 3 no matter if you cast it for or your opponent cast it for in this scenario. The CMC of a card is the total of the mana symbols in the upper right corner of the card (or on future sight cards along the left side of the art frame).
The only time this changes is for cards with in their mana cost. In all zones except the stack is counted as zero. On the stack is considered the value you declared for it when casting the spell. This means that Chimeric Mass for =2 would be countered by a Chalice on 2, but would be blown up by a Pernicious Deed activation for 0.
January 13, 2019 1:51 p.m.
Though this question has been answered, I wanted to make one correction to Gidgetimer's follow-up response on the off-chance anyone is reading this thread in the future. To clarify, it is not a substantive change to the answer to the question itself, but rather the dicta regarding cards with variable CMCs.
There are actually two times a converted mana cost on a card can change. The first is spells with in the cost, such as those Gidgetimer mentioned. The second is split cards. These could be cards with Aftermath , cards with fuse , or generic split cards .
While in any zone other than the stack (Library, hand, graveyard, exile, and ante--there are no split cards that can be on the battlefield or in the command zone), the CMC is equal to the total casting cost of the card. Using our three above-linked options: Appeal / Authority would have a CMC of 3 when in non-stack zones; Alive / Well would have a CMC of 5; and Assault / Battery would have a CMC of 5.
When on the stack, the CMC is equal to the total cost of the sides being cast. For Armed / Dangerous , this will be either 1 or 2, depending on which portion is being cast. For Assault / Battery , his will be either 1 or 4, depending on the side being cast.
It gets a bit funky with Fuse, as there are multiple options. Alive / Well will have a CMC of four if only Alive is cast, a CMC of 1 if only Well is cast, and a CMC of 5 if both halves are fused together.
Anyway, sorry to post on a closed thread--I just wanted to make sure all the information was available.
January 14, 2019 3:05 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #6
Thank you for explaining how split cards function CMC-wise. I had totally forgotten about them. Your Armed / Dangerous example doesn't track though. Were you trying to continue with Appeal / Authority and mislinked?
January 14, 2019 4:27 p.m.
It would seem I did--thanks for pointing this out. I suppose it's now my turn to say "please don't think less of me"!
January 14, 2019 4:55 p.m.
Good info on the cards with X, Gidgetimer. I knew the rule about split cards, but that's interesting to hear that the CMC of an X cost card is not zero if it's on the stack. I had never heard that.
With that in mind, let's look at Chalice of the Void , itself, where you pay the X cost twice. If my opponent has that Chalice with 2 counters in play, then as I understand it, I would NOT be able to cast my own Chalice for a total of 2 mana (X=1), but I COULD cast a Chalice, paying X twice for a total of 4 mana (X=2) and giving it 2 counters. Right?
January 14, 2019 8:57 p.m.
You are correct. Cards that prevent casting based on CMC look to CMC while on the stack.
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #1
Additional costs and alternate costs do not change the CMC of a spell. A kicked Goblin Bushwhacker has a CMC of 1 and a Force of Will that you paid 1 life and exiled a blue card for still has a cmc of 5. So a chalice on 2 will not counter your kicked Goblin Bushwhacker .
(side note, you can play anything with a chalice on board, it is just weather the chalice will try to counter it or not. This is rarely relevant, but in a few cases such as destroying a chalice on 2 with Abrupt Decay it can be.)
January 12, 2019 4:56 p.m.