Do -1/-1 counters remove +1/+1 counters and how does that effect undying?
Asked by BaraBux 5 years ago
Sorry for formatting.
So I’m building a commander deck using Mikaeus, the Unhallowed.
Would Skinrender be able to remove a +1 counter given by undying or does that creature now have a -1 and +1 counter?
Pretty much, is the only way to trigger undying again after a creature comes back from the graveyard is to have an ability explicitly say “remove +1 counter” or “put -1 counter”?
Again thanks and sorry for formatting!
Please link cards using double square brackets so it's easier to understand the question.
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Skinrender
+1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters cancel each other out.
121.3. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it. See rule 704.
So Skinrender would put three -1/-1 counters on the targeted undying creature. Then as soon as someone would receive priority, state-based actions are checked, and one of each counter type would be removed, leaving two -1/-1 counters. If the three -1/-1 counters reduced the creature's toughness to 0 or less, it would also be put into the graveyard at this point, as all state-based actions are performed simultaneously, so make sure to do this to a tough enough creature.
For an example of how to link cards in the future, it looks like this:
[[Skinrender]]
November 13, 2018 4:45 p.m.
Interesting rule fact, +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters only cancel one another out because Rule 121.3 says they do. Other opposing counters, such as Ebon Praetor's -2/-2 counters and Dwarven Armory's +2/+2 counters will not cancel one another out, and both will remain on the permanent. Likewise, two +1/+1 counters will not cancel out a -2/-2 counter and -1/-1 counters can't can't cancel +2/+2 counters. None of these would interact with Ebon Praetor's +1/+0 counters (it's a pretty strange card).
Cards with unusual counters are both rare and have not been printed for a long time, so it's unlikely relevant to anything you'll ever actually see in a real game.
November 13, 2018 4:59 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
Something to keep in mind: If a creature with a +1/+1 counter and Undying receives a number of -1/-1 counters great enough to kill it, Undying won't bring it back. This is because all state-based actions are processed simultaneously and "dies" triggers get information from the last moment the creature was on the battlefield. In such a situation, the counters annihilate and the creature is put into the graveyard at the same time, so that means it still had a +1/+1 counter in the moment right before it died and Undying won't trigger.
November 13, 2018 5:09 p.m.
Please remember to link cards, as Kogarashi previously demonstrated.
Ghoulflesh has a static ability that gives -1/-1. This is distinct from a -1/-1 counter, and will not remove any +1/+1 counters placed on the creatures. As such, undying will work as normal - it would not return the creature if it had a +1/+1 counter on it.
November 13, 2018 7:59 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #7
If you require no further clarification, please select an answer to remove this from the unanswered queue. If you are still unsure about anything feel free to ask for further clarification.
November 18, 2018 2:09 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #8
BaraBux: Answers to this question have been up for a while. I chose one to mark as the "Accepted Answer" so that the thread can move out of the Unanswered queue. Please remember to take care of this yourself in the future.
berryjon says... Accepted answer #1
+1/+1 counters and -1/-1 Counters remove themselves as a state based action in a 1-1 ratio until only one type of counter remains. So if a creature has 3 +1/+1's and got 2 -1/-1's, they would cancel each other out to leave 1 +1/+1 on the creature as a state based action.
November 13, 2018 4:35 p.m.