Chalice of the void vs Dash costs
Asked by DrWaffles 2 years ago
Hello!
I’ve tried looking for this online, and only ended up more confused. If there is a Chalice of the Void with 1 counter, and a Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer is dashed, will it counter the creature?
But why? If it says cast it for it’s dash cost? What is the difference between this and casting an overloaded Electrickery ?
July 24, 2021 9:07 a.m.
There isn't really a difference. Chalice of the Void with 1 counter will trigger to counter Electrickery whether it's overloaded or not. A spell's mana value is determined by the cost written in the upper right hand corner (including X), not by the amount of mana actually spent (except in determining the value of X).
July 26, 2021 8:09 p.m.
But then how a Disdainful Stroke counters a Repeal with x=3?
July 27, 2021 9:25 p.m.
If X=3 for Repeal , then between casting and resolving only, Repeal 's MV is 4. For X-cost spells, the mana value is adjusted while it's on the stack. In all other zones, X is assumed to be zero.
July 27, 2021 9:30 p.m.
Im sorry guys, I still dont understand why Ragavan while dashed, would be countered by a chalice on 1
July 27, 2021 10:37 p.m.
The simplest answer is that what you pay for a spell is not always equal to the converted mana cost/mana value.
The mana value, until recently called converted mana cost, is an inherent and unchangeable property of a card. It's generally found by taking the generic mana cost in the top right corner, then adding 1 for each colored mana symbol.
What you actually pay for a spell is very changeable. It can be increased by cards like Jade Leech , decreased by cards like Thornscape Familiar , or changed completely by cards like Fist of Suns . None of these affect the CMC/MV number.
Chalice of the Void checks the inherent and unchanging mana value, not what was actually paid.
July 27, 2021 10:50 p.m.
RaidenShogun69 says... #8
if you don't need further clarification, please select an answer so this can move to the "answered" section of the Q&A
July 28, 2021 12:10 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #9
The rules define mana value (previously called Converted Mana Cost) as: "The total amount of mana in a mana cost, regardless of color". Mana cost is defined as: "A characteristic, and part of a card. A card's mana cost is indicated by the mana symbols printed in its upper right corner". Paying an alternative cost such as Dash or Overload doesn't change the printed mana cost. Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer 's printed mana cost is , so it will always have a mana value of 1.
The calculation takes into account the chosen value of any X in the mana cost. This is why Disdainful Stroke can counter Repeal with X=3.
July 29, 2021 10:05 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #10
DrWaffles anything more you'd like help with? This is a bit of a tricky subject, so no shame :)
July 29, 2021 3:24 p.m.
In the future, please remember to hit the green "Mark as Answer" if you have no further questions. Since this question has been resolved for a few days, I have gone ahead and marked an answer on your behalf.
I did also want to sum up the above, since there was some confusion:
A card's mana value is always the mana value on the card's front face and does not change, except in two situations:
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The mana value for an X-costed spell while on the stack is equal to the value of X and the other mana symbols. So, with Repeal , if X = 3, its mana value will be 4 while on the stack. In all other zones, the mana value is 1.
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Split cards have a mana value equal to the sides of the card cast. If you cast the Alive side, the mana value will be 4. If you cast the Well side, the mana value will be 1. If you cast them both with Fuse, the mana value will be 5. In all other zones, the mana value is equal to the total cost of both sides, in this case 5.
In all other situations, the mana cost on the card's front face will be the mana value in all zones.
July 30, 2021 9:45 p.m.
Because Caerwyn mentioned mana value being the cost of the front face, I do feel the need to mention another big exception: On the stack and battlefield the mana value of an Modal Double Face Card (like Halvar, God of Battle Flip) is the side that is currently up. So Sword of the Realms has a mana value of 2, not 4 when cast as such or on the battlefield. In all other zones it will just be Halvar, God of Battle Flip and have a mana value of 4. There's also some really niche stuff with TDFCs, but those are never transformed on the stack so it wouldn't interact with Chalice of the Void .
July 30, 2021 10:38 p.m.
Hey guys yes, thanks! I was traveling, and work caught up to me. Thank you all :D
Neotrup says... #1
Yes, Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer has a mana value of 1, even if it's cast with its alternate dash cost, without paying its mana cost, or through an increased cost like Trinisphere .
July 24, 2021 7:48 a.m.