Can i re-arrange the cards in my library while searching it?
Asked by vomdur 7 years ago
I have recently started playing Bant Knightfall. Being new to the deck i sometimes forget which lands are where and such.
If my opponent is ok with shortcuts like not shuffling between each activation of Knight of the Reliquary is it ok to sort the lands in my library so i can combo easier?
For those that don't know the combo is Knight of the Reliquary + Retreat to Coralhelm sac a bunch of lands then attack with the big knight and pump with Kessig Wolf Run if needed.
Gidgetimer says... #2
I would propose a different shortcut than sorting out the lands and not shuffling. Such as just shortcutting the entire "ETB, Untap, Tap land for mana, Tap to search" into just pitching plains and forests from the library into the bin with the understanding that you are floating mana from each.
You can rearrange your library during a search, but you are supposed to shuffle after each search. If they are making you do each activation individually and are ok with not shuffling I wouldn't sort the cards out personally.
October 27, 2016 12:09 p.m.
Wouldn't it only be stacking if i was handing it over for them to shuffle without having shuffled the crap out of it myself?
All of my opponents so far have been very understanding with the whole not shuffling between each activation as they don't want to waste time either.
The problem with that plan Gidgetimer is i often want to stack scry triggers/tap their things so i am also searching out fetch lands. I think opponents that are familiar with the deck would want me to play that out as it is very possible for me to miss triggers and most opponents that don't know the deck want it played out so they can see what is going on.
October 27, 2016 12:18 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #4
If you are failing to shuffle before scrying, that's isn't ok. Because you illegally know the locations of cards in your library, that is stacking your deck. In order to scry, you need to shuffle.
October 27, 2016 12:28 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #5
Ok, well you need to shuffle before anything else happens to the deck, so you need to shuffle before any scry triggers or draws. It isn't cheating to move cards around as you search since the order is no longer unknown anyway and you have to randomize before continuing with the game. It is however highly suspect since It is relatively easy to appear to be randomizing and still maintain the position of a few cards.
October 27, 2016 12:31 p.m.
oh definitely. its all at instant speed so i stack up about 5 scry triggers finish the combo shuffle up then do the scry.
After doing some more googling there is an obscure rule that says
400.5. The order of objects in a library, in a graveyard, or on the stack cant be changed except when effects or rules allow it.
So apparently no i cannot sort my lands. Also it appears that many people that search their library and pick 2 or 3 options and pull them aside to consider them are breaking the rules as well.
October 27, 2016 12:32 p.m.
Full rule
400.5. The order of objects in a library, in a graveyard, or on the stack cant be changed except when effects or rules allow it. The same is true for objects arranged in face-down piles in other zones. Other objects in other zones can be arranged however their owners wish, although who controls those objects, whether theyre tapped or flipped, and what other objects are attached to them must remain clear to all players.
October 27, 2016 12:41 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #8
The effect that had you search instructed you to shuffle. This is reordering. It allows the reordering of the library because as a side effect of allowing you to pull a card from there the order of a hidden zone was no longer unknown. People who pull multiple possibilities are breaking no rule as long as they sufficiently randomize during the shuffle.
Rule 400.5 is so that you can not randomly shuffle after a Brainstorm, Scroll Rack, or any other ability that may allow you to know the position of one or more cards.
October 27, 2016 12:53 p.m.
The search and the shuffle are separate though are they not? you are supposed to search then shuffle. All of the search cards are worded that way.
From what i found rule 400.5 was put into effect because of Darkwater Egg and Chromatic Sphere when being used for an effect likePanglacial Wurm.
October 27, 2016 12:57 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #10
Meh apparently you are right. I'm sorry that I was mistaken.
7/15/2006: While searching your library, you must keep your library in the same order until you shuffle it. This order could matter if you tap Millikin for mana, for example, to pay for a Panglacial Wurm you cast from your library.
October 27, 2016 1:17 p.m.
No worries I was really hoping I could rearrange things but guess I will just have to work on my memory and mtg skills lol
Raging_Squiggle says... #1
You can't rearrange cards in your deck while searching, since that is cheating. As is stacking your deck. But, if you are going to be searching your library back to back to back, without interacting with it in another way, (ie drawing a card or two), it generally isn't a problem to skip shuffling until the final resolution of searching.
October 27, 2016 12:05 p.m.