Can Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero's ability be used even if it's not exiled?
Asked by BMHKain 4 years ago
I recently watched an episode of Command Zone, & Josh & Jimmy stated this is possible, but even stated they aren't Judges either. If this is possible, I'm cutting Rest in Peace for Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero as a cEDH CMDR... ooooooh…
@Rhadamanthus: Thanks. I just wanted to ask to get the debate settled. That said, a lot of decks to make/trim to 100 each, & I barely have even <25% of my decks so far. I'll have to see about this at least...
Thank you for the answer though, sir! :D
August 27, 2019 2:07 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #3
I just realized something. Even if Gerrard's ability said "if you do", moving it to the command zone instead of exile wouldn't interfere with the way the ability worked, just as long as you actually let the card go to the graveyard first. An "if you do" condition checks on whether you started to perform the action and doesn't care if the result of that action got replaced with something else. It's possible they might have left off the "if you do" to avoid confusing people about whether the ability would still work if the card was sent to the command zone instead of exile.
August 27, 2019 4:46 p.m.
@Rhadamanthus: That's... not true? Otherwise, Iname as One would be... slightly less awful as a Commander.
If you have a Baral, Chief of Compliance and Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar out at the same time and would draw a card from Baral's triggered ability, you don't have to discard a card. You only have to discard a card if you do draw one, and Tomorrow's replacement effect says that you don't.
August 27, 2019 9:24 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #5
@Yesterday It just so happens that the Gatherer page for Iname as One has the following rulings note:
4/15/2013 In a Commander game, you may send Iname to the Command Zone instead of exiling it during the resolution of its ability. If you do, its ability still works. Iname's ability only requires that you attempted to exile it, not that it actually gets to the exile zone. This is similar to how destroying a creature (with, for example, Rest in Peace) doesn't necessarily ensure that creature will end up in the graveyard; it just so happens that the action of exiling something and the exile zone both use the same word: "exile".
If you take an action but a replacement effect changes the result of that action, you still took the action. This is why, for example, Rest in Peace doesn't shut down activated abilities with "sacrifice a creature" in the cost. The game's definition of "sacrifice" is "To move a permanent you control to its owner's graveyard". If you sacrifice something while Rest in Peace is out and it moves to exile instead of the graveyard, you still sacrificed it.
In your Baral, Chief of Compliance and Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar example, you do have to discard a card.
August 27, 2019 10:56 p.m.
For Tomorrow, I was thinking of Read the Runes 'for each card drawn this way' and guess I got mixed up.
As for Iname, my mind has been blown.
August 27, 2019 11:42 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
Right, "for each card drawn this way" is different because it actually does care about the result. Similar to effects that destroy some things and then have another effect based on how many of those things actually went to the graveyard ( Terastodon , Sorin, Lord of Innistrad , etc.).
August 28, 2019 midnight
wait...
(I'm resuming my development of a deck in regards to Morph...)
(But a heated debate goes to Worldfire (I know it's banned, but it's true...) Level Destruction...)
(But if Iname as One was able to allow its abilities to activate even w/ Rest in Peace …)
(Why do I feel I want to ask a second time...?)
Uh, well... after an overnight mild lack of slumber, I didn't know this question would go crazy on this scale. Now I wonder if Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero can still do what the question asked initially, & since we've recently put Iname as One on the table, is Gerrard capable of the same rulings mentioned above as Iname as One ? If what everyone say otherwise about this Gerrard is true, Ah well. I tried... X/
August 28, 2019 9 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #9
The answer about Gerrard is still the same as before. As its triggered ability is resolving, when you get to the "exile it" instruction you can choose to send it to the command zone instead and the rest of the ability will still work.
What we're saying about Iname and other "if you do" checks is that when you get to the "you may exile it" instruction, you can choose to exile it but then send it to the command zone instead. The "if you do" just checks that you started to perform the "exile it" action. It will still work if the result of that action got replaced with something different.
No one is saying Gerrard and Iname will still work under Rest in Peace . Rest in Peace prevents them from going to the graveyard at all ("...exile it instead") so their abilities never trigger in the first place.
August 28, 2019 10:58 a.m.
I think the point is that moving to the command zone is also a replacement effect, so that Gerrard and Iname would never go to the graveyard in the first place. Per mtgcommander.net:
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If a Commander would be put into a library, hand, graveyard or exile from anywhere, its owner may choose to move it to the command zone instead.
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This is a replacement effect. It applies last and may apply multiple times to an event.
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The creature never goes to the original destination zone and will not trigger abilities that trigger based on going there (e.g. "dies" triggers).
So given that, technically Gerrard's triggered ability wouldn't trigger, just going off of the wording above.
August 28, 2019 3:26 p.m.
Addendum: however, letting either go to the graveyard, then moving them to the command zone when their ability exiles them works. Maybe that's where the confusion lies: the exact event you replace with moving to the command zone.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #1
Yes, that's possible. Unlike Academy Rector and other similar cards, Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero doesn't have an "if you do" condition that requires it to be exiled in order for the ability to work. It's fine if you choose to send it to the command zone instead of exile as the ability resolves, or if you respond with some instant-speed effect to move it out of the graveyard to your hand or the battlefield before the ability resolves.
August 27, 2019 12:36 p.m.