Asking for 3 Official Judge rulings on two seperate instances.
Asked by shifterfox 9 years ago
To summarize the question topic: I'm asking for there to be 3 seperate judges agreeing on a single ruling so I feel that the result is fair/mutual.
Question 1. Nissa, Worldwaker
Nissa's final ability. Put lands into play. Then, they become creatures. Lastly, they are still lands. Can those lands tap/attack the turn they come into play since they were lands originally before becoming creatures or do they get summoning sickness despite not being cast or entering the battlefield as creatures?
Question 2: Mercurial Pretender Illusory Angel Welkin Tern
Tern and Angel are on the battlefield. That same player who controls both also has only five basic lands. Entering main phase 1, that player taps all five lands for mana and plays Pretender to enter the battlefield as a copy of Illusory Angel. Is this a legal play though the copy requires another spell to be cast before it can be played, or can the player only copy the Tern?
As a note: these are both pretty basic questions. I appreciate your desire for rigour in response, but requiring three judges to answer questions that are simple compared even to the rules advisor practice tests might be a little excessive.
July 27, 2014 8:31 p.m.
And for reference, since I see you asked about both, no those lands also won't be able to activate their mana abilities either, since they are creatures, have summoning sickness, and the land's mana abilities have 'tap' in their cost.
July 27, 2014 8:33 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #4
Q1: Everything Devonin is right. Summoning sickness is still a thing even if they didn't enter as creatures.
Q2: You cast Mercurial Pretender , you did not cast Illusory Angel , so it is fine.
You shouldn't need multiple opinions on something like these, the above are facts and written into the rules, not merely opinions.
July 27, 2014 8:35 p.m.
GreatSword says... #5
Most of us on the Tapped Out Q+A page aren't judges anyway.
July 27, 2014 8:36 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #6
These questions are very basic interactions, and don't require a Judge to answer. Demanding a Judge response is also kind of rude, and anyway there's no real way to verify whether or not a given user is a Judge.
1) The rules for summoning sickness all depend on whether or not you've controlled the object since the beginning of your most recent turn. On the same turn Nissa, Worldwaker brings in and animates the lands, you haven't controlled them long enough for them to be free of summoning sickness.
2) Mercurial Pretender isn't yet a copy of Illusory Angel at the time you first cast it, so it's not subject to the Angel's casting restriction.
July 27, 2014 8:37 p.m.
Yeah, these are fairly simple questions... Devonin is right on the money. This is not the sort of question for which you should be asking an "official judge ruling", much less the agreement of three. I could have answered these after playing Magic for a year, and that was 10 years ago, and I'm not even a judge.
Especially when you can easily lookup official answers for one of these from Wizards (M15 release notes for Nissa) and the other is self-explanatory from the card text ("cast" comes before "enters the battlefield", so clearly once the Mercurial Pretender has entered the battlefield restrictions on casting it wouldn't matter).
July 27, 2014 8:39 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #8
Q1) Here's how summoning sickness works:
302.6. A creatures activated ability with the tap symbol or the untap symbol in its activation cost cant be activated unless the creature has been under its controllers control continuously since his or her most recent turn began. A creature cant attack unless it has been under its controllers control continuously since his or her most recent turn began. This rule is informally called the summoning sickness rule.
As long as something's a creature and there is no effect to get around summoning sickness (haste, Thousand-Year Elixir , etc) it will not be able to tap or attack. Summoning sickness does not apply to lands, but it does to creatures and if a land becomes a creature (including man lands) it will check to make sure it has been under its controller's control continuously since his or her most recent turn began.
Q2) Mercurial Pretender is not being cast as a copy of Illusory Angel , it is entering the battlefield as one. The restriction on Illusory Angel is on the casting of it, so it is a legal target for the Pretender.
July 27, 2014 8:42 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
First, it's considered taboo 'round here to request that a judge answer your question; there are plenty of knowledgeable non-judge users, and, unfortunately, plenty of not-so-knowledgeable judges. Second, it's fine if you want to see consensus regarding an answer, but actually telling us that you won't accept any answer that isn't peer-reviewed twice seems a little entitled, to say the least. Third, ask unrelated questions in separate threads. Don't post compilations of unrelated questions.
Anyway,
1) Summoning sickness affects any creature that hasn't been continuously controlled by its current controller since the beginning of that player's most recent turn. It doesn't matter whether the creature became a creature after entering the battlefield, entered the battlefield via a non-cast means, or anything else. Only haste overrides this rule.
2) Mercurial Pretender only becomes a copy of the selected creature when it resolves (also, the object isn't even selected until Mercurial Pretender resolves). The casting restriction of Illusory Angel won't apply to Mercurial Pretender because the spell you're casting is Mercurial Pretender , not Illusory Angel .
July 27, 2014 8:42 p.m.
shifterfox says... #10
I had just looked in through the comprehensive rules for both of these before posting up the question. question 1 I couldn't find the answer for that was specific enough for clarity(that it applies to all permanents. The entry I have of the rules states it only applies to creatures not lands). question 2 I've been seeking out the answer to as well and couldn't find. The part of it that had me lost on the mercurial pretender question was the "by the time the effect matters, it is already cast". This part had me confused as the only comprehensive rule I could find on it stated that the pretender copies the name and all, in which it would matter. The missing bit of "it has already been cast by that point" was the missing link I was needing for clarity.
It is in the case of the missing bits that made me ask for multiple replies. Basic or not the circumstances left me unsure.
July 27, 2014 8:45 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
@shifterfox: Nissa, Worldwaker 's ult states that the lands become creatures that are still lands. Because they're creatures, summoning sickness applies to them. Having other types doesn't make a creature immune to summoning sickness.
July 27, 2014 8:49 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #12
I apologize if I sounded short; usually when I hear someone asking for something like multiple opinions, they're either fishing for answers they want to hear or have had bad experiences with people getting things wrong and now trust nobody- both of those are kind of irritating.
The folks around here are pretty good and if someone tells you wrong someone else will usually pipe up about it.
July 27, 2014 8:49 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #13
Consider Summoning Sickness in the following way:
It's not a condition that appears when a creature enters the battlefield and then vanishes when the creature is there at the beginning of your turn, it's a constant for every creature on the battlefield. Every creature is being checked to see if it has been under its current controller's control since the beginning of their last turn, if not then that creature is unable to tap or untap for the purposes of its own activated abilities or to attack.
So, if a non-creature permanent becomes a creature (Gideon Jura via his 0 ability, enchantments via Opalescence , artifacts via March of the Machines etc) it is now subject to the same constant. It checks, and if it fails it has "Summoning Sickness" and all the restrictions that entails.
July 27, 2014 9:01 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #14
Correction: "beginning of their last turn" is wrong. What I mean to say is that any permanent that is a creature will have summoning sickness's restrictions [i]unless[/i] that permanent has been under your control continuously since the last time you've had a turn "begin" regardless of when it enters the battlefield or what it enters the battlefield as.
Devonin says... Accepted answer #1
Question 1: All permanents are technically subject to the rule that is commonly called "Summoning Sickness" It does not matter if/when/how ANYTHING becomes a creature. You cannot attack with a creature unless you have controlled it since the beginning of your upkeep, unless it has haste. The lands she fetches can enter any way they want. By the attack step when you would try to declare them as attackers, you haven't controlled them since the beginning of your upkeep so they can't attack.
Question 2: The ability of Mercurial Pretender changes how it enters the battlefield. It does not change how it is cast. Illusory Angel only restricts how you can cast it, and by the time the pretender has anything to do with the angel, it has been cast, and the cast spell has resolved. You can do this as described.
July 27, 2014 8:30 p.m.