Another Grusilda, Monster Masher question with Kheru Mind-Eater and the Ceaseless Hunger
Asked by Ansem717 6 years ago
Grusilda, Monster Masher can grab two creatures from graveyards and combine them.
If I combine Kheru Mind-Eater with Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, can I play the cards that Kherumog, the Ceaseless Mind-Eater exiled with its on-attack trigger?
Thanks in advance!
Rhadamanthus says... #2
The problem is that as-written the abilities on Kheru Mind-Eater are linked, meaning the second ability specifically refers to cards exiled with the first ability and nothing else. I think it's reasonable to assume that a full set of "proper" rules for combining creatures would have to account for this, meaning the answer to your question would unfortunately be "no".
December 4, 2017 11:57 a.m.
OK, on further investigation, Rhadamanthus is totally right and I was wrong. The Comprehensive Rule is:
607.2a If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that instructs a player to exile one or more cards and an ability printed on it that refers either to the exiled cards or to cards exiled with [this object], these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of an instruction to exile them in the first ability.
December 4, 2017 12:47 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #4
The thing is though, when you make a combined creature, it has all of the text of both creatures, it has all of those abilities, and it wasn't granted them, you have one object that has printed on it "when ~ deals combat damage to a player, that player exiles a card from his or hand face down." and "Whenever ~, attacks, defending player exiles the top twenty cards of his or her library." AND "You may look at and play cards exiled with ~."
Obviously with Un-cards you get into weird stuff like this and there may not even be an appropriate answer.
December 4, 2017 4:23 p.m.
See, I'm thinking exactly the same thing as Tyrant-Thanatos. It may be possible that the new combined creature re-links the text?
December 4, 2017 4:51 p.m.
Monomanamaniac says... #6
It actually says they get their names, so stated names in abilities wouldn't be an issue. It seems like it would totally work because the mind-eater says you may look at and play all spells exiled by it, not explicitly the spells exiled by its first ability
December 4, 2017 6:43 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #7
Rule 607.2a tells us that it is explicitly the spells exiled by its first ability.
The problem is we're not looking at a Mind-Eater that's had another ability tacked on to it, we're looking at one single creature that is comprised of these two cards, much like a Meld card.
December 4, 2017 6:49 p.m.
chosenone124 says... #8
I believe that they can. The reason is that if you read Grusilda, Monster Masher's reminder text, she doesn't copy abilities like a card like Mairsil, the Pretender. She copies text boxes: in other words, literal text.
Referring back to earlier:
607.2a If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that instructs a player to exile one or more cards and an ability printed on it that refers either to the exiled cards or to cards exiled with [this object], these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of an instruction to exile them in the first ability.
The fused monster's Text Box reads: "Whenever Ulamog attacks, exile... You may play cards exiled with Kheru Mind Eater"
Breaking it down:
Their text boxes are fused. That means the object has both those abilities printed on it, fulfilling 607.2a's if clause to link the abilities. Cards who merely copy abilities don't link their exiles to the special second part, since those copied abilities are not printed on the card. However, Grusilda manipulates an object's printed text.
December 4, 2017 7:41 p.m. Edited.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #9
My thoughts exactly chosenone124. Maybe we'll get additional clarification down the line on exactly how "combining" creatures works with the rules, but I sort of doubt it. Previous Un-Cards never even got Oracled properly.
December 4, 2017 7:49 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #10
Like I said, I think we just have to assume that a "proper" set of rules for combining would have to have some way to account for linked abilities. I think it would follow the existing rules we have for gaining/losing abilities and not allow for abilities that aren't naturally linked to one another to somehow become linked. We're never going to get that full set of proper rules for any Un-set, so we just have to do our best to reason it out.
December 4, 2017 8:18 p.m. Edited.
The text boxes aren't fused, rather the combined creature has two separate text boxes. Phoebe, Head of S.N.E.A.K. functions similarly, being able to have multiple text boxes.
December 5, 2017 11:46 a.m.
Grusilda, Monster Masher's Reminder Text does say "Combined Power and toughness" and "has all text boxes" so it's possible that she doesn't combine the Text boxes, making them individual to their own creatures. Which would be a shame, because I really want Kherumog to wreck face.
:P
December 5, 2017 1:21 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #13
@Neotrup and Ansem717: Those are good points, and I like that way of thinking about it. Makes it much more clear.
December 5, 2017 1:25 p.m.
The-Reanimator says... #15
The answer is Yes. You can play cards exiles from Kherus ability even though the combined creature has a new full name. The rules state that if a creature has ability of another creature that refers to copied creature, then the ability reads as it refers to itself as well. This is how cloned creatures that keep their name can still function when copying a creature that has an ability that refers to itself.
December 11, 2017 12:18 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #16
@The-Reanimator the issue isn't the name. Read the rest of the thread.
607.2a If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that instructs a player to exile one or more cards and an ability printed on it that refers either to the exiled cards or to cards exiled with [this object], these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of an instruction to exile them in the first ability.
Lame_Duck says... #1
Yes, the Kheru Mind-Eater's "play exiled cards" ability isn't tied to the combat damage ability, so you can play any cards exiled by it regardless of how those cards were exiled (and the same is true for the unholy abomination you're creating with Grusilda).
December 4, 2017 4:29 a.m.