2 questions: When can I cast a spell with surge? And Tiana + bestow.
Asked by oliveoilonyaasscureshemorrhoid 5 years ago
Question 1: Say I have Tiana, Ship's Caretaker on the battlefield, and Eidolon of Countless Battles bestowed on a creature I control, and a player casts Planar Cleansing. Does Eidolon become a creature and stay on the battlefield, or does it come back to my hand because of Tiana's delayed triggered ability?
Question 2: Say I cast an instant spell on an opponent's turn. After the instant resolves, can I cast Crush of Tentacles's surge cost? Or does the surge mechanic not allow a sorcery to change the casting "timezone"?
Thanks in advance!
One really situational addition to Kogarashi's post. Let's say you had Hypersonic Dragon in play. Then you could cast Crush of Tentacles on your opponents turn for its surge cost--you would not even have to wait for the prior spell to resolve.
October 4, 2018 1:19 a.m.
oliveoilonyaasscureshemorrhoid says... #3
@Kogarashi I don't believe Eidolon of Countless Battles goes to the graveyard, because the the gatherer.com rulings says it doesn't go to the graveyard like a normal aura, if it becomes unattached. But if Planar Cleansing doesn't make Eidolon become 'unattached' then I believe you're right. Your thoughts? And would a delayed trigger, like on Tiana, Ship's Caretaker, stop Eidolon from becoming a creature, even though it's state-based? Thanks for answering.
October 4, 2018 1:50 a.m.
I'm not fantastic at rulings but I may be able to help here.
After Planar Cleansing is cast the Creature with Bestow doesn't become unattached to the Creature it is enchanting. In order for that to happen it would have to still be around, but Planar Cleansing has already destroyed it. It is no longer on the Battlefield as it is in the Graveyard.
Since it was an Aura when it went to the Graveyard Tiana, Ship's Caretaker sees it get put into the Graveyard as an Aura, and it will return to hand at the beginning of the next end step.
October 4, 2018 2:07 a.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... Accepted answer #5
oliveoilonyaasscureshemorrhoid: That ruling is referring to this:
702.102e If an Aura with bestow is attached to an illegal object or player, it becomes unattached. This is an exception to rule 704.5m.
Ordinarily, when an aura is attached to an illegal object, say because it has protection from the aura or no longer exists on the battlefield, then it is put into the graveyard. Bestow cards instead "revert" to their creature forms. If an Eidolon of Countless Battles were enchanting a creature, and was targeted by a Naturalize, it would be destroyed as normal. When Planar Cleansing resolves, it destroys both cards simultaneously. For comparison, a Wrath of God would not destroy the Eidolon of Countless Battles in this instance, because it would simply become unattached and revert to a creature when the creature it was enchanting is destroyed.
October 4, 2018 9:33 a.m. Edited.
Argy is correct. Example to clarify:
If you have a Knight token enchanted with both Eidolon of Countless Battles (via bestow) and Lifelink, and someone casts Murder on the token, both Auras "fall off." Lifelink, being a normal Aura, goes to the graveyard (and Tiana would return it to hand at the end step). The Eidolon, on the other hand, becomes a creature and stays on the battlefield due to the rules specific to bestow.
Similarly, a creature-only sweep like Wrath of God will kill the Knight token, causing both Auras to fall off. Again, Lifelink would go to the graveyard, while Eidolon of Countless Battles would become a creature.
Planar Cleansing, however, isn't creature-only. Since it destroys all nonland permanents, it will destroy both Auras at the same time that it destroys the Knight token (and Tiana). Because the Eidolon is destroyed at the same time as the Knight token, it doesn't have time to fall off and become a creature, so it's destroyed as an Aura. In our example, Tiana sees two Auras (Eidolon and Lifelink) destroyed and the delayed triggered ability is set up to return them both to hand at the beginning of the end step.
It would happen the same way if someone just uses Naturalize on Eidolon of Countless Battles while it's bestowed. It's destroyed as an Aura, not detached and turned into a creature.
So this is why I mentioned that it's situational. If an opponent casts Planar Cleansing, but then Murders the Knight token first, then the Eidolon falls off and becomes a creature before the Planar Cleansing resolves, and thus Tiana, Ship's Caretaker doesn't see it as an Aura.
October 4, 2018 9:46 a.m.
Ah, ninja'd by Tyrant-Thanatos, and using the same example cards no less.
October 4, 2018 9:48 a.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #8
Haha! In fairness Kogarashi, Naturalize and Wrath of God are pretty iconic cards. I bet that for most players, especially long-time players, the first things that would come to mind for "card that destroys and enchantment" and "boardwipe" would be the same. :)
October 4, 2018 10:19 a.m.
oliveoilonyaasscureshemorrhoid says... #9
@Tyrant-Thanatos @Kogarashi @Argy @cdkime
Many thanks! To all of you!
October 4, 2018 10:55 a.m.
No worries.
I'm just glad I got it right!
Just so you know, you don't need to put @ in front of user names.
As soon as you write the correct name that person is automatically tagged.
Kogarashi says... #1
It depends on whether or not your bestow creature is actively an Aura when Planar Cleansing resolves. If it is an Aura attached to another creature when the Cleansing resolves, then Tiana, Ship's Caretaker will see an Aura going to the graveyard and her ability will trigger. If, however, someone casts Murder in response to the Planar Cleansing on the creature that's enchanted by a bestow creature, the bestow creature will "fall off" and become a creature again before the Cleansing destroys it, and thus it won't trigger Tiana.
Surge is a keyword that provides an alternative cost for the spell. It does not get around timing restrictions on the spell, and therefore you would not be able to cast a sorcery on an opponent's turn with surge.
October 4, 2018 12:35 a.m.